How prescient
Mar 17, 2001 | 2:59 pm
#2
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2000
Programs: UA Million Miler (lite). NY Metro area.
Posts: 15,437
I for one am glad that web site doesn't work.
Can't all of us here LET IT DROP!
There are new flyertalkers signing on here everyday. Let them see all the good that's available here. Some of these new participants may even become the next Prem and Catman.
Think positively. Think smart.
No more negative or what's perceived as negative posting allowed.
Regards,
Dan
And I miss catman.
[This message has been edited by dhammer53 (edited 03-17-2001).]
Can't all of us here LET IT DROP!
There are new flyertalkers signing on here everyday. Let them see all the good that's available here. Some of these new participants may even become the next Prem and Catman.
Think positively. Think smart.
No more negative or what's perceived as negative posting allowed.
Regards,
Dan
And I miss catman.
[This message has been edited by dhammer53 (edited 03-17-2001).]
Mar 17, 2001 | 3:11 pm
#3
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: CH-3823 Wengen Switzerland
Programs: miles&more, MileagePlus
Posts: 27,043
well, I am not promoting in general the negativ posters on this board.
But in this case (and some others), I feel uncomfortable that it seems the Board owners did follow the requests of doc (having made the last post there requesting that it should be closed) - it is strange for me, that the Board owner should follow the advices of those that do, by posting and reposting to flame-wars, bring back exactly these threads to the 'top of the pop' in the respective forums again and again.
And now I do, for once, exactly the same with this post ...
But in this case (and some others), I feel uncomfortable that it seems the Board owners did follow the requests of doc (having made the last post there requesting that it should be closed) - it is strange for me, that the Board owner should follow the advices of those that do, by posting and reposting to flame-wars, bring back exactly these threads to the 'top of the pop' in the respective forums again and again.
And now I do, for once, exactly the same with this post ...
Mar 17, 2001 | 5:15 pm
#5
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Between SNA and ONT
Posts: 1,486
essxjay, sure, many people saw this coming, but there are many people who are contributing to the problem. Here's what I see them to be:
1. ozstamps -- People say Glen's a decent guy in person, but for some reason, he's a real jerk on these boards. Fortunately, Randy seems to be clamping down on him, having already suspended him once. Two more strikes, and he's out.
2. Those who fight with ozstamps -- Unfortunately, some FTers who I really like are in this group. But engaging ozstamps when he's being a jerk is a dead-end road. You don't have to like the guy, but if you don't respond or retaliate, a lot more ugliness will be prevented. Again, Randy seems to be taking action when things begin to escalate and has suspended at least one person for getting into it with ozstamps.
3. Those who defend ozstamps -- Certainly, some of the insults lobbed at ozstamps were not merited, but he definitely deserves a good bit of criticism. There is a certain small group of FTers who seem to ignore ozstamps' misdeeds and step up to defend him while assessing blame on others.
4. Those who use more than one handle -- It's a violation of the terms Randy has set. And those who shout "Hypocrisy!" at ozstamps' while having extra identities themselves are certainly missing something. I certainly don't see eye to eye with some on this issue, most notably Notsonewhere (aka ******). The semantics of saying which extra aliases are OK and which are not is tiring, and I hope no one gets into that again. The point is we should all follow the rules. Once again, we should be glad that Randy is finally taking action.
5. Those who think they don't have to follow the rules because they are old school FT or because many people don't mind -- These people seriously undermine their credibility and the respect they've built up over their time here when they suggest that their violations of FT rules are OK. No one is bigger than FT. Period.
6. Those who leave FT and publicly say it's because of ozstamps, etc. -- To many people, these messages come across as attempts for sympathy and such, but the bigger issue is that it does nothing to solve the problem and, in fact, makes things worse for those of us who are still here. Again, I don't mean this as a personal remark against anyone who has done this; some who have are among my favorite FTers.
But when someone leaves and posts that it's because FT has declined, etc., then what invariably happens? It sparks a big discussion about ozstamps and everything else (just like this thread). People lament what's happened and get nostalgic for the good ol' days of FT. Well, sorry, but no matter what happens, we can't go back there.
If FT no longer has enough value to you to make it worth your time, then that's fine. Maybe it's sort of sad, but it's also the natural order of things, whether it's FT or personal relationship or a job or whatever.
But if you leave because FT has changed, do us all a favor and don't post that. Think of those that you leave behind. I often think of the quiet departure of Boomer, who's sorely missed on the Continental board. He's been gone close to six months now, and lots of us would like to see him back. But Boomer was a class act, even in leaving FT. I hold him up as an example.
The big question each of us should ask himself or herself is this: What am I going to do to make FT better? And the longer one's been here, the greater their responsibility to the community. To paraphrase JFK: Ask not what FT can do for you; ask what you can do for FT.
To all to whom it applies: Get off your high horses and keep that in mind.
[This message has been edited by motnot (edited 03-17-2001).]
1. ozstamps -- People say Glen's a decent guy in person, but for some reason, he's a real jerk on these boards. Fortunately, Randy seems to be clamping down on him, having already suspended him once. Two more strikes, and he's out.
2. Those who fight with ozstamps -- Unfortunately, some FTers who I really like are in this group. But engaging ozstamps when he's being a jerk is a dead-end road. You don't have to like the guy, but if you don't respond or retaliate, a lot more ugliness will be prevented. Again, Randy seems to be taking action when things begin to escalate and has suspended at least one person for getting into it with ozstamps.
3. Those who defend ozstamps -- Certainly, some of the insults lobbed at ozstamps were not merited, but he definitely deserves a good bit of criticism. There is a certain small group of FTers who seem to ignore ozstamps' misdeeds and step up to defend him while assessing blame on others.
4. Those who use more than one handle -- It's a violation of the terms Randy has set. And those who shout "Hypocrisy!" at ozstamps' while having extra identities themselves are certainly missing something. I certainly don't see eye to eye with some on this issue, most notably Notsonewhere (aka ******). The semantics of saying which extra aliases are OK and which are not is tiring, and I hope no one gets into that again. The point is we should all follow the rules. Once again, we should be glad that Randy is finally taking action.
5. Those who think they don't have to follow the rules because they are old school FT or because many people don't mind -- These people seriously undermine their credibility and the respect they've built up over their time here when they suggest that their violations of FT rules are OK. No one is bigger than FT. Period.
6. Those who leave FT and publicly say it's because of ozstamps, etc. -- To many people, these messages come across as attempts for sympathy and such, but the bigger issue is that it does nothing to solve the problem and, in fact, makes things worse for those of us who are still here. Again, I don't mean this as a personal remark against anyone who has done this; some who have are among my favorite FTers.
But when someone leaves and posts that it's because FT has declined, etc., then what invariably happens? It sparks a big discussion about ozstamps and everything else (just like this thread). People lament what's happened and get nostalgic for the good ol' days of FT. Well, sorry, but no matter what happens, we can't go back there.
If FT no longer has enough value to you to make it worth your time, then that's fine. Maybe it's sort of sad, but it's also the natural order of things, whether it's FT or personal relationship or a job or whatever.
But if you leave because FT has changed, do us all a favor and don't post that. Think of those that you leave behind. I often think of the quiet departure of Boomer, who's sorely missed on the Continental board. He's been gone close to six months now, and lots of us would like to see him back. But Boomer was a class act, even in leaving FT. I hold him up as an example.
The big question each of us should ask himself or herself is this: What am I going to do to make FT better? And the longer one's been here, the greater their responsibility to the community. To paraphrase JFK: Ask not what FT can do for you; ask what you can do for FT.
To all to whom it applies: Get off your high horses and keep that in mind.
[This message has been edited by motnot (edited 03-17-2001).]
Mar 17, 2001 | 6:26 pm
#7
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Just a few FACTS for the record please.
Randy posted March 13 there had been EIGHT timeouts in the past month served by FT'ers, and I know for a fact there have also been some very strong warnings issued as well. And by reading Randy's board at least one more timeout email (probably more actually) was issued March 15 over "Carol", making minimum NINE in total, so Randy's staff are treating recent flames seriously. As to multiple or fake ID's used by others here, this official count comes from Randy (none of these is me) quote: "some 900+ members with roughly 2814 total multiple user names." That is on average more than three ID's per "real" FT person. Assuming many had only one other ID, many must have have several or even dozens.
I'd be delighted for those 900+ members and their 2814 multiple ID's to be openly published for all to see, as there would undoubtably be some VERY interesting reading, and clearly not all 1,900 fakes were created for "light humour and fun". I request Randy and staff publish these names for the benefit of all FT.
Raking up history is all very fine for those who choose to do so, but let's temper it with some FACTS please. Premex gave two very specific reasons for leaving. The second one was, unedited quote: "recent developments regarding Randy Petersen's email (which is his right) regarding any multiple handles (harmless or not) ... the time has come to say goodbye to FlyerTalk for good." unquote
Eight (at least) of those timeouts in the past month or so for "inappropriate language and flaming" posting were not me, and the 2814 multiple user IDs here were not me either. But at least 900 FlyerTalkers clearly do know a LOT about those multiple ID's.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000330.html
This is not a flame, nor is it directed at anyone specific. It is simply a sober recital of FACTS. The constant free advice given to ME is to broadly follow what dhammer posted above.
------------------
~ Glen ~
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-17-2001).]
Randy posted March 13 there had been EIGHT timeouts in the past month served by FT'ers, and I know for a fact there have also been some very strong warnings issued as well. And by reading Randy's board at least one more timeout email (probably more actually) was issued March 15 over "Carol", making minimum NINE in total, so Randy's staff are treating recent flames seriously. As to multiple or fake ID's used by others here, this official count comes from Randy (none of these is me) quote: "some 900+ members with roughly 2814 total multiple user names." That is on average more than three ID's per "real" FT person. Assuming many had only one other ID, many must have have several or even dozens.
I'd be delighted for those 900+ members and their 2814 multiple ID's to be openly published for all to see, as there would undoubtably be some VERY interesting reading, and clearly not all 1,900 fakes were created for "light humour and fun". I request Randy and staff publish these names for the benefit of all FT.
Raking up history is all very fine for those who choose to do so, but let's temper it with some FACTS please. Premex gave two very specific reasons for leaving. The second one was, unedited quote: "recent developments regarding Randy Petersen's email (which is his right) regarding any multiple handles (harmless or not) ... the time has come to say goodbye to FlyerTalk for good." unquote
Eight (at least) of those timeouts in the past month or so for "inappropriate language and flaming" posting were not me, and the 2814 multiple user IDs here were not me either. But at least 900 FlyerTalkers clearly do know a LOT about those multiple ID's.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000330.html
This is not a flame, nor is it directed at anyone specific. It is simply a sober recital of FACTS. The constant free advice given to ME is to broadly follow what dhammer posted above.
------------------
~ Glen ~
[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 03-17-2001).]
Mar 17, 2001 | 7:17 pm
#8
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: YVR
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Posts: 8,969
I would argue that out of all those multiple usernames...only a dozen or two were created and used in a hurtful and spiteful manner, or used to bolster ones own posts. Most of those multiple handles were for fun, entertainment, etc. It is those in the former category (the evil one) that should be ashamed and banned from FT.
I miss those who have left...honestly. The character and flavour of FT has changed...not just because they have left...but because many of us have seen all this transpire...and we are sad.
H*ll, I have virtually given up on my 3 projects listed below...
Dorian
------------------
The Global Lounge Project - open source airline lounge listings
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel tips
The Star Alliance RTW Price Chart - by Dorian
The Star Alliance Gold Comparison Chart - by Blondebomber
Most of those multiple handles were for fun, entertainment, etc. It is those in the former category (the evil one) that should be ashamed and banned from FT.I miss those who have left...honestly. The character and flavour of FT has changed...not just because they have left...but because many of us have seen all this transpire...and we are sad.
H*ll, I have virtually given up on my 3 projects listed below...
Dorian
------------------
The Global Lounge Project - open source airline lounge listings
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel tips
The Star Alliance RTW Price Chart - by Dorian
The Star Alliance Gold Comparison Chart - by Blondebomber
Mar 17, 2001 | 7:37 pm
#10
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2000
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2814 less 900 = 1914 fake user ID's Dorian.
All except a dozen or two created for "fun and entertainment"? So you are saying that is about 1,900 fake IDS created for 'fun and entertainment' by 900+ FT users? Do you have a full list of the fake ID's to have made such an astounding assumption?
------------------
~ Glen ~
All except a dozen or two created for "fun and entertainment"? So you are saying that is about 1,900 fake IDS created for 'fun and entertainment' by 900+ FT users? Do you have a full list of the fake ID's to have made such an astounding assumption?
------------------
~ Glen ~
Mar 17, 2001 | 8:02 pm
#11
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 3,218
essxjay, nice to hear from you. For a while, I thought you had gone away too (not that I would blame you). Sadly, there are fewer interesting threads in the UA forum these days and fewer and fewer reasons to post overall.
Personally, I would rather not be so prescient, but at least it's now possible to know where people stand, and what values they uphold or dismiss (bad grammar and spelling and a tendency to edit every post can only go so far in an online context).
I, too, am sad to see good people go, and the bad apple(s) stay But I am glad that PremEx, Jon Toner, Catman, and others have announce their departures so that the rest of us know that something is wrong. To leave quietly would be a disservice to the rest of us.
Their departures will result in a continued shift in the tone of these threads. And pretty soon, I can see Randy adding two new fora called Travel Scams and Tricks and My Favorite Online Shoplifting Experience
Personally, I would rather not be so prescient, but at least it's now possible to know where people stand, and what values they uphold or dismiss (bad grammar and spelling and a tendency to edit every post can only go so far in an online context).
I, too, am sad to see good people go, and the bad apple(s) stay
But I am glad that PremEx, Jon Toner, Catman, and others have announce their departures so that the rest of us know that something is wrong. To leave quietly would be a disservice to the rest of us. Their departures will result in a continued shift in the tone of these threads. And pretty soon, I can see Randy adding two new fora called Travel Scams and Tricks and My Favorite Online Shoplifting Experience
Mar 17, 2001 | 8:07 pm
#12
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Ozstamps....
Why even post such a thing to me? You know I am speaking about my personal opinion and experience. Another wasted post...
Dorian
Why even post such a thing to me? You know I am speaking about my personal opinion and experience. Another wasted post...
Dorian
Mar 17, 2001 | 8:28 pm
#13
Join Date: Jun 1999
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Okay...Oz replied directly to me via email...prompting this post.
Randy, I for one would be most interested and love to see the list of duplicate handles (which I do realize will never happen).
Dorian
------------------
The Global Lounge Project - open source airline lounge listings - managed by Dorian
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel tips - managed by Catman, Shareholder, Rudi & Dorian
The Star Alliance RTW Price Chart - by Dorian
The Star Alliance Gold Comparison Chart - by Blondebomber
Randy, I for one would be most interested and love to see the list of duplicate handles (which I do realize will never happen).
Dorian
------------------
The Global Lounge Project - open source airline lounge listings - managed by Dorian
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel tips - managed by Catman, Shareholder, Rudi & Dorian
The Star Alliance RTW Price Chart - by Dorian
The Star Alliance Gold Comparison Chart - by Blondebomber
Mar 17, 2001 | 8:38 pm
#14
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That's two votes already. I am completely sure all the FT regulars have nothing to hide, and will consider also endorsing this clearly sensible request to allow full disclosure of the approx 1,900 fake ID's. 
------------------
~ Glen ~
------------------
~ Glen ~
Mar 17, 2001 | 10:30 pm
#15
Suspended
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Make that three votes for full disclosure. I just can't beleve that there are that many multiple handle FTers - - ther has to be some other explanation (e.g. two registered users from the same computer?).
Also, I would like to echo essxjay's remarks regarding addressing the current problems before we lose any more of the community. And I am not taking sides here, or calling anyone out. Let's fix things before they get any worse.
Also, I would like to echo essxjay's remarks regarding addressing the current problems before we lose any more of the community. And I am not taking sides here, or calling anyone out. Let's fix things before they get any worse.