Jon, so sorry to hear your decision, but I totally understand. I was looking forward to finally meeting you at CMD III, but you must do what's right for you.

I have stayed totally out of the 'fray' for the most part, sifting through the s**t, but you're right. Why should we have to do that?
Trolls need food; some people here love to feed trolls & can't resist.

I'm joining Jailer in his treehouse, and all my posts can be transferred to anyone that wants them for their Badge of Honour... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif Move over Barry, I'm comin' up the ladder.

I, too, would gladly donate my meager number of posts to anyone who wants them if it will stop this. My experience as a mother of 3 and a grandmother of 7 http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif tells me that the only way to impose a "time out" is to absolutely ignore the offensive behavior. Even well-founded responses are reinforcement.

Jailer's suggestions of not responding, not reading, etc. are good ones. If every post OZ makes is the last one in that thread, there would be no more of this. I'm not much of an organizer, but this idea of Jailer's shall become my own personal contribution toward a reversal of such pervasive acrimony.

Jon - check back in - if we're disciplined, this could stop.

Jon, my heart is broken! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

It is NOT your fault! You know that.

But Flyertalk will be a less civil place without our resident psychiatrist and philosopher.

Most of all, my heart is broken that one of MY FRIENDS will not be at my DO. You will absolutely be missed.

Remember, you are always part of the Flyeratlk family and I hope you reconsider.
I remember a certain philosopher from MASS telling me to reconsider quitting the boards for good.

I await your return when you see things are right again.

Jon- hopefully your "leaving" will relegate you to lurker level so your insight, thoughts and knowledge will still be available to FlyerTalk.

Brilliant and 100% accurate Jon.

Jon,

I hope that someday you will reconsider this decision. I also hope that someday, FT can be free of the noise that has driven you away.

Randy,

How many more VALUABLE contributors need be driven away before action is taken. One loud noisy voice is drowning out much of the good in FT.

Well Jon Toner has summarized it all, and very well. Thank you

It is with regret that I am following him, at least until something is done.

I have appreciated the many contributions; I personally have learned a lot; it has been fun- particularly during the $27.98 to Paris thing- but I just simply cannot stand it any more.

Ignoring Ozstamps does not work, not ignoring him does not work either. The owners of this board appear to be either unresponsive or even appreciative of the divisiveness he has brought. People who refuse to address the issue by attempting to kill threads are just putting their heads in the sand.

I could go on for a page, but I think the events of the last few months speak for themselves.

It's too bad. I am sorry to have to let this go, believe me I am REALLY sad. Bye guys.

[This message has been edited by Droneklax (edited 02-28-2001).]

JT,,
Baseball Do. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

DAN

I too am sad to see Drone and Jon leave. But I don't blame Oz. It's a free society and there will always be things we don't like. Baseball is a good analogy. We hate the millionaire whiners, but we still love the beauty of the game.

Personally I've never seen anything objectionable from Oz since I don't read a lot of lengthy United threads. Also I don't usually read any thread that lacks an intriguing title.

But if and when I do open something I don't like, it's pretty easy to hit a button to remove it from the screen. I'm not going to give up on Flyertalk because of some problem posters.


[This message has been edited by stimpy (edited 02-28-2001).]

Echoing stimpy with whom I agree, while I feel I understand Jon and respect his opinions greatly, I think Jailer and Indurain have particularly raised good points and even methods to deal with what they (and not necessarily I), see as a real "problem."

Yet, it takes two to tango - or to fight! The constant complaining and incessant bickering are manifestly as troubling as the "problem" itself, insofar as I'm concerned.

I'd like to think that we collectively are somewhat compassionate. If Oz possibly has a problem, we should try to help him and not throw him away. We should not all bail out on him, or on our host, or on the party, IMHO! Even if he is perhaps wrong!

Oz's judgement was at times less than stellar- by his own admission. And at times so was/is mine! And surely many others - perhaps! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif So? There is plenty of blame to go around - but why bother with even attributing it? To what end? There are more important things - like miles and points http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif - and LIFE itself! C'mon everyone, let's all take a deep breath and give this some thought- ideally with a somewhat positive spin!

His former apology was inadequate in the view of some, but I do believe, perhaps naively, that Oz is actually well intentioned. I feel, and I do not speak for him, surely, that he desparately wants to contribute to FT and to be accepted by FT'ers! Perhaps if he had been made to feel more as if he had been an accepted contributor in the past, this entire episode might well have been averted. He would perhaps not have fallen into the trap of constantly trying too hard to prove himself in my view. I believe this has been mistaken as him constantly seeking adulation.

There are many reasons to depart - as there are many reasons to stay. I think that there are surely FAR more of the latter. I'd hope that we could perhaps all see and emphasize the latter - and remain! If not, perhaps a brief vacation could invigorate oneself!

In any case, let's please all be sure to try to put the "fun" back into FT! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

-Just my 0.02

I agree with Stimpy.

I just ignore what I don't want to read.

This board does get a little childish. My son sometimes gets in trouble for pushing, shoving, and name calling but....he's 9.

jon 'muscle' toner,

arturo agre wiff yu an arturo mey reveel hemself an leaf, two. butt, arturo giting reel tired of awll ozsheets stamps. ownly reesin ozsheets hav moar posties es thet he excremint errorgance an peepl knot lik et an they argu bout et an ozsheets tern hemself entwo herow. ozsheets, yu doo knot howl et the moon. pls goe ther fore arturo an evrywon.

Hi, wengliss, wher yu bin?

I have taken some time to think about Jailer's suggestions.

Excellent suggestions, but I would like to play the Devil's Advocate if I may.

1. I will read no thread that you start;

This is easy. My only reason for reading one of these threads would be to correct the accuracy of one of his statements. If we do not do this, FT could very well lose more of it's credibility.


2. I will read none of your postings, merely skipping them over;

This one is tough for two reasons. One is the same as the above answer. The other is his penchant for attacking ones who take a position he disagrees with. In the past week he has attacked cactuspete and wharvey. What would they think if nobody came to their defense. If we stand idly bye as Ozhole attacks other members, we are no better than he.

3. I will answer none of your email;

Very easy. Luckily, I am no longer on his Mass Spam e-mail list.


4. I will not attend any event that you sponsor, nor will I communicate with you should our paths meet;

Also very easy. This should be practiced at the DO. I will have no communication with him. Period. Hopefully others will do the same.

5. I will turn my back on you and shun you entirely. You are, to me, a non-person.

See answer to 4.

Jailer,

Ignoring a bully does not work. The only way to show a bully for the coward that they are is to stand up to them. We as a community need to stand up to this bully when necessary. If IT attacks another member, we need to stand up in their defense. Other wise, the ignore option is perfect.

I am sorry to read your post Jon, and do hope you'll reconsider. I honestly feel that 95% of my postings during 2001 have been flame free, and the other 5% involved the user Camera Guy inciting the inevitable responses, often resorting to outright lies to do it. It always takes at least TWO to tango. What went on in latter 2000 is history. No it was not nice, and yes, it often was involving me, but everything moves on, and many, myself included, learned from it, and no-one wanted to see it re-occur in 2001.

A wide array of FlyerTalkers used fake IDs latter 2000, myself included, and many admitted to it, myself included, and many prominent FT'ers did NOT admit to doing it, and are still anonymous among us. So be it. Raking over those coals serves little purplse as what's done is done. Turning on the IP Logging has kept fake users down to 2 or 3 instances I have seen during all of 2001 .... and all were quickly detected and disicplined by FlyerTalk staff. And none were me, or had anything whatever to do with me.

Camera Guy has a stalking obsession for any post I make. If that keeps him amused in his spare time, rather than talking flying and points and positive advice, so be it, it is a free country. Basic checking by anyone here will show Camera Guy more than I has been the main toxic force on FlyerTalk in 2001 by using this tactic, as it often incites others. If anyone cares to check his posts over the past 2 months this will be shown as correct and may surprise many. His posts are mostly attacking me, and serve no positive purpose whatever for FT or other FT'ers except to start and keep afire flame wars. And then make the above sanctimonious posting. Go look - it is very disturbing behaviour for a man to say this below on a thread today, when his own "contributions" re points or tips or flying advice to any others here on FT are self evident:

Well Camera Guy .... you stalk pretty well every post I make, so I'll let others search my last 100 or whatever posts and look at your last 100 and make their own judgement as to who is the bigger problem to FT. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

------------------
~ Glen ~

Let me say hi to wingless also. (What? No number?)

To paraphrase Frank Baum, I rarely pay attention to that man behind the curtain. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Arturo
I have been around. I rarely read FT anymore. I communicate with several FTer's regularly via email.

Besides, you stood me up last year and I have been heart-broken ever since. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif