Randy, Please rip off those masks!!!!
 

At one low point in FT's history when things got bad and were headed to worse, when the level heads on FT were calling for strict moderation of these boards, Randy short-circuted a crisis by simply turning on the UBB IP logging feature, thereby giving Webflyer the ability to unmask with some degree of certainty anonymous posters.

It is time for Randy to take this action again. Not only are we not sure who many posters really are, there has been created an environment where there exists little or not trust and faith in fellow flytertaklers. That's just sad. I am sorely tempted to point fingers of blame south of the equator, but that would be redundant at this point.

We have a problem. Randy holds the keys to the solution. Randy, please turn the IP logging feature on and USE it. Out multiple personalities. Issue warnings to abusers. Go after multiple offenders at their ISP.

Drastic times call for drastic measures. Please restore our faith in each other, even if you must do so by force.

BTW, yes, I realize the IP log can be circumvented, but such circumvention leaves evidence as well and to me, such circumvention is proof of guilt...

Either that or implement moderated forums...

PLEASE!

Kokonutz,

I could not agree more.

Unless something is done to unmask multiple personalities, most of us will be wondering if every new member is really just another disguise.

That will be very unfair to "Real" new members who have no idea what has happened and why they are being treated with distrust.

Agree!

Plenty of agreement from this end as well...

Wonderful idea!

And here's another one, as posted by FewMiles here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum.../003806-4.html

I'm not a lawyer (nor have I pretended to be one on these boards) but my interpretation of the TOS is pretty simple. They've been violated. The offending parties should be removed...

ONCE AGAIN, I could not agree more.

IP addresses are a little scary though...you can find out WAY too much about someone...this is why I call for moderators:

MODERATORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dorian

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
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Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

I'll jump into this one too, I've been waiting a long time for someone (who I won't name) to tell me who I am. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Moderators, sure.

But posting IP addresses is going too far. Do you realize how much you can find out about a person with that little bit of information? The goal should be to weed out flamers, not threaten the personal privacy of everyone else.

The IP thing sounds like a lot of work for the WebFlyer staff, basically them having to police these boards. That is an unreasonable burden to ask on them.

Moderators would't necessarily be a bad idea, but I don't see how they could help with the question of who people really are. That's not a moderator's job.

The best solution, which I will later sum up in one word, is for people here to just take a deep breath and relax. This is not a constitutional crisis. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I usually find views by everyone in this thread to be quite enlightened. However, this is definitely not the case here.

What is being proposed is, in essence, the first step into dangerous territory. How do you think the Salem witch hunts began?

Authoritarian rule starts with one little "plan" that takes away freedom in the name of making things better, or at least better for some. Would FlyerTalk be better if people didn't use fake IDs? I say yes, but not at the cost that is being suggested.

FlyerTalk already requires people to register. Fine, that's nice. "But people don't have to give an e-mail address!!" come the calls from the worriers. Well, we all know that e-mail addresses can be gotten in seconds.

But the fact is many new people may not want to make their e-mail address available. The Internet is a new thing to many people, and they may not be comfortable giving out personal information to strangers. And given that so many other discussion boards, etc., on the Net are far less civil than FT, even those with much Internet experience may choose not to reveal their e-mail address.

But none of that goes to the issue of fake FT IDs. Do I want to be carded every time I post? No, and I bet you don't either.

IP logging is really not a cure-all, anyway. As was mentioned, people can get around it. Or, given that this is a community of travelers, what if someone is posting from somewhere other than their normal place, say on a business trip?

And Randy's staff is going to be forced to sort through all this? IP logging is just not practical, and I'm glad it is not, because it's such a terrible idea.

What about newbies? If I'm signing up for FlyerTalk and I read over the terms and conditions and I see that FT will be logging my Internet address, I may be more than a little hesitant to go through with that.

This community is not only about the regulars, something that is all too often forgotten by many old-timers. FT does not exist solely for us regulars, and what we think is best for FT may not always be so.

Newbies already many times are treated like dirt around here, told to "do a search" or even just treated rudely. The way to make that better is also the solution to this current problem, of dealing with suspected fake IDs:

Grace.

kokonutz said:
I don't think the intent here is to post the offending ISP's. FlyerTalk has the ability to identify and warn those 'multiple personas' that their actions are a breach of the TOS agreement, plain & simple. If the offender(s) choose not to comply, then FT can pull the plug or block them.

I'm in favor of that....

For our last discussion on the possible use of moderators that Dorian initiated:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000232.html

The way the thread "developed" kind of illustrates to me that a real need for them may well already be here- sadly! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

There have been some recent responses to some newbies' posts across FT that have sharply directed them to do a search or to see similar discussions in other forums without giving them the benefit of a link. That troubles me; it's no way to make someone new, who is probably unfamiliar with the way FT works, feel welcome.

As for the fake ID issue, I agree that policing every post via IP logging does not make sense and, in fact, strikes me as scary. I don't favor the use of moderators either. Maybe it's because I have not been around FT all that long, or perhaps I am just naive, but I tend to take members' comments and their identities at face value. I ignore the flames, the wars and silly posts or those that simply indulge the authors' egos.

It has never occurred to me to second guess someone's identity or the validity of their remarks on FT and I am not about to begin now. The wonderful FTers I met in Tokyo last weekend proved me right to be so trusting and I will continue in this vein while trying to keep in mind that grace, tolerance and patience are key to the survival of FlyerTalk or any other community, be it virtual or "real."

Just yesterday I read a post by one of FT's more prominent and respected members and was appalled at one of the remarks therein. Believe me, it was tempting to fire off a reply and question the right of this person to do what had been described. Instead, I did what "motnot" suggested: I took a deep breath, shrugged it off and when on to another thread. Do I still take issue with the behavior described? Absolutely. Is it that important for me to have my say at the risk of getting tempers flared and feelings hurt? Not at all.

And so it goes with fake IDs and the like. If, someday, I have it proven to me that the correspondence I have had (whether on FT or in private email) with "FlyerTalker X", "FlyerTalker Y" and "FlyerTalker Z" have all been directed to the same individual, so what. I will likely be perplexed and wonder why the individual felt a need to spread him- or herself around so but it will not rock my world.

I will continue to be involved with FlyerTalk, sharing ideas and exchanging information, in the hopes that my travel and that of the other members will be a bit more enjoyable and productive because of those efforts. Perhaps others can find peace in adopting a similar strategy.

bbinchi,

Multiple personalities have become a problem for one simple reason.

ONE member here used a multiple personality to enhance an opinion. The "Fake Personality" claimed to be a lawyer and offered "Legal Advise". This type of behavior cannot and should not be tolerated.

To all of you calling for moderators,

What exactly are moderators going to do?

Will they have IP logging and searching capabilities?

Are some of you calling for moderators prepared to be told that your posts are in the wrong forum? Not on topic?

Be careful what you wish for, you may get it

IP logging requires very little "work" from the WebFlyer staff. The software does the work, creating a log file. It does require someone to read it. Can Randy find one person with 10 minutes to do it?

And the IP addresses are not made visible to the public, only in the log file.

Really a terrible idea? And allowing the ozzie-phalanx unlimited free range is a much better one I suppose?

Anyone ever receive grace from a graceless man?

Is that the real problem??? Would I ask for legal advice on FlyerTalk???

In my opinion, the justification of such an action would be to rip of the masks of Pfps, notsonewhere etc. and get rid of the persistent personal attacks.

But it is pretty easy to get around IP logging if one is determined. I agree, be careful of what you are asking for - you might get it.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 12-10-2000).]

bbinchi, Response to newbies is tertiary to the two main points of this thread; that is, use of multiple handles and IP logging.


IP logging is simply a toggle in the UBB admin program. In other words, a bot process. To put it more plainly, it's a passive, behind-the-scenes action in the software rather than an active "policing" as you suggest. There should be no fear of it as long as participation is on the level. Logging is not actively monitored but can be referred to when necessary, such as when TOS has been violated or to identify violators.

I disagree with your assessment for the need for moderators and, yes, it is based on my long-term participation in the FT community. You are entitled to your evaluation of the trustworthiness of the other members here but IME several newcomers have proven unworthy of our trust, not to mention downright nasty in their behavior here. I'm not willing to acquiesce the integrity of the forum to them. FT means too much to me to not fight for it.

[This message has been edited by essxjay (edited 12-10-2000).]

PG, You missed my point. The use of multiple personalities to enhance an opinion cannot and should not be tolerated. The above example is just one of the many abuses by the ONE member.

You also took my "Be careful what you ask for" line out of context. Are you insinuating that I am Pfp or NSNH?.

If so, you are wrong. I do not hide behind an alias. If I think a member here is wrong, I state that under my one and only identity.

If not, I am sorry that I read that into your comments.

While the goal is admirable turning on IP address monitoring will do little. Most people get a new IP address every time they login, and if you use a large ISP like AT&T or IBM, getting them to track down who was on a particular IP at a particular time normally requires a court order -- abusing a bulletin board is not going to get their attention.

Not to mention the dozens of free internet services that require nearly no real information to get access to the Internet, and to track them back would require looking up the inbound phone number, no easy task, and then getting the phone company to tell you who has that number if its unlisted (court order required).

If people are fed up then I too support partial moderation -- create new copies of the current boards for people who want moderation to participate in, and let us 'commoners' jibber jabber among the regular bulletin boards.

Cameraguy - you are reading into my words. Its ironic, I agreed with one thing in your post.

For me the persistent personal attacks by false handles like Pfps and NSNH are far worse, and moreover they set a bad precedent where anything goes and the end justify the means.

Someone please explain the wealth of information one can learn about a person through their IP address. Pardon my ignorance, I just don't know anything about this stuff. Thanks.

Through a 'normal' IP address you can usually determine a person's physical location and/or where they work.

In some cases I know of instances of people being tracked to a single computer at a library in 'real-time' (yes, they were physically tracked down while sitting there).

I do not support IP tracking. I support moderated forums.

Dorian

------------------
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel recommendations: http://www.flyersplaces.com
Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

PG,

I was pretty sure that I was misreading your post, but I wanted to make sure. That's why I aplogized in advance.

As far as the Pfp's and NSNH, I can somewhat see why they have chosen to go "Incognito". I myself am tired of being made to feel as if I am wrong for wanting posts to be made in the correct forum and for off-topic posts to be done in moderation.

This comment should not be taken as my acceptance of the Pfp's and NSNH. I myself feel that the arguments (But in some cases, not the manner or words in which they have been conveyed) of those handles stand on their own merit. The arguments put forth by the Pfp's and NSNH would, IMO have a LOT more credibility if they came from the "Real Handles".

Just let this pass. Ignore it, let it pass. Not everyone in society behaves wonderfully according to the "rules." Just let it pass.

I don't believe any scheme for IP logging, identity verification, or moderation, will make FT better. It will slow things down, add fuel to the fires.

Look, most posts on FT are great, helpful, a real contribution.

Just stop feeding the fires and concentrate on these 99% of posts.

Scribbler: An IP address is the "address" of your specific connection to the internet. It can easily be traced back to a "bundle" of a specific ISP getting at least as close as the node your are on, sometimes much, much closer.

Using this process it was really rather simple (for someone who knows what they are doing...and I'm certainly NOT saying I'm such a guy) to determine with a 99.99% degree of certainty that Ozstamps was Janejet. Oz made the mistake of replying to an e-mail from me as Janejet. That IP address was similar enough to IP headings on e-mails from Ozstamps to create virtual certainty as to the identity of janejet (and I dont mind revealing that fact now that Oz has refused to do the honorable thing and confess).

That's what I am asking Randy to do. Have his staff log IP addresses on posts just as e-mails automatically do, and if someone is abusive or "under suspicion" Randy's staff can simply go back and look at the log. If there is a pattern, it will be readily apparent whether or not folks are screwing around with multiple handles and who is doing it. Just the threat of this happening should be enough to have a severe chilling effect on flames and multiple handles.

I agree with PG that this will help not only with janejet, molsonmiler, etc, but that it will also chill other multiple handles whether they create a ficticious life for themselves or not.

As Essexjay points out, it could not possibly be less time consuming or difficult for Team Randy to do. Check a toggle and refer to the log when necessary. Simple.

As for this practice making people think twice about posting here, well, I guess that's pertty much my intent. Think twice before you flame. Think three times before you create a pseudonym.

Look folks, IMHO, people are yelling "FIRE" in this crowded theater, and it is well within reason to implement simple and unintrusive controls on such "speech" for the greater good of the community.

Anyway, Randy already knows all this since he implemented the practice once before. I'm sorry for going on and on. It's Randy's house, he sets the rules. Just trying to make a helpful suggestion...

http://www.anonymizer.com/

Thannks Koko and Dorian. I get it now. Still don't know what the solution is, but we definitely need one.

essxjay:

I respectfully request that you not take my words out of context and then chastize me for posting comments on a seemingly irrelevant point. Please be careful to note that the portion of my post you selected was in response to some very valid and relevant comments made by "motnot" in an earlier post under this topic.

Thank you.

Ya, sure Anonymizer...slower than h*ll. How 'bout www.freedom.net?? Not there is a way around IP!!!


Dorian

------------------
flyers'places - restaurant, bar & hotel recommendations: http://www.flyersplaces.com
Dorian's Star Alliance RTW Price Chart: http://www.informationlab.com/rtw.htm
Blondebomber's Star Alliance Comparison Chart: http://members.home.net/deercroft/starall00.html

I agree with kokonutz.If a post can be checked AFTER the fact-once a person is under suspicion. then why would that be a problem?If another member has a reason to suspect- then Randys staff check it.The only thing that will really do is make it inconvenient for someone to constantly be 2 identities as they would need 2 isps and 2 computers.Would anyone really bother thenI hope that makes sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My IP address at work, on my DSL or cable modem line, and through each of my dial-up ISP's (I can use Compuserve or Earthlink) is different. (actually, they are all DHCP, so they won't be exactly the same even from time-to-time).

Someone with the resources of the NSA or CIA could no doubt trace all of this and find a person. But it is a bit much to ask of the Flyertalk staff.

bbinchi, the context was not lost on me, but your point about treatment of newbies while valid is an issue separate from koko's thesis.

As I see it, the problem on FlyerTalk generally has less to do with posting false information (although there have certainly been a few breaches in this regard) and more to do with civility, as outlined above. When I originally registered for FlyerTalk, I assumed that the terms above would be the basis for participation. For the most part they were, until sometime this summer, when all h*ll broke loose. In particular, I've seen a big increase in the amount of harrassing, hateful, and abusive behavior, often hidden behind the mask of a persona.

As I have a number of times in the past, I again voice my support for moderation. Moderators can help enforce the above terms. They can help restore the civil tone of this board which many of us miss.

I have mixed feelings about having FlyerTalk IP logging given the ease with which it can be gotten around. I guess I would support it but it is by no means a cure all for our problems.

[This message has been edited by dgolds (edited 12-10-2000).]

"Someone with the resources of the NSA or CIA could no doubt trace all of this and find a person."

Half the kids in the computer science class at the local high school could also. It's really not all that difficult. That's why turning on IP logging is such a bad idea (bad, at least, to those who value their personal privacy -- I certainly do).

For anyone who doubts me, visit http://www.slashdot.org and post a challenge for someone to track you down based on your IP address.

I'm a computer engineer and I know all the tricks.

What I am saying is that if someone were to restrict each "identity" to one particular method of accessing the net, it would be next to impossible to connect them. That would take real detective work, or a slip-up.

1. I agree with everything that richard wrote.

2. As has been proven time and again in America, freedom is not always pretty, but it is worth any ugliness it spawns.

3. I'm quite disgusted with witch hunt attidues that many FT regulars have taken. I've seen about a half-dozen people be accused of being ozstamps on this board and the UA board. Come on, get over it. FT is important to us, yes, but national security is not at stake. I more ashamed of that behavior than any fake IDs that ozstamps or anyone else may have created.

I suggest forgiveness, even if someone they're not deserving of it. Anyone who's a Christian knows all about this. Even if you aren't, it's not that hard of a concept to grasp.

Forgive me for not knowing the relevance of wheather someone has a "fake I.D." or not, I thought this forum was a happy place to share tips and stories with folks who love to travel, getting the best value they can. I was considering shortening my handle to make it easier to type, since I don't type very fast...would I be suspect of something? I'm not a regular yet, since I still don't have a computer, but I drop in now and then at cyber-cafe's like this one in Thailand, and I can't believe how stressed some of the conversations here are! I have been lurking/posting since March, I think, and it seems to be getting worse. Just an observation by someone very grateful for a forum like this.

I WANT AN OPTION ALLOWING ME TO NOT DISPLAY SOMEONE'S POSTS

While I am against multiple IDs and agree with some type of moderation, I'm not sure IP tracking will do the job.

My fiance Honeybaby and I post from the same computer - mine. While she posts very infrequently, an script could interpret it as a fake ID. This could create problems for multi-member families posting from the same place.

I would instead propose a feature to ignore posters you find offensive, or don't agree with, and each individual can set up their own list to of members to ignore.

Droneklax - congratulations for posting the obvious, equitable, workable solution that wouldn't be top down censorship. I've lost count of how many times we've asked for it before. I fully agree with you that a 'squelch' function, allowing users to silence those they don't wish to hear from (but only on their own machine), is completely desirable.

Now everybody, please can we end the witch-hunting and endless accusations, leave the culprits to their most pathetic little lives and get on with business?

[This message has been edited by james (edited 12-11-2000).]

"...Now everybody, please can we end the witch-hunting and endless accusations,...

I could not possibly AGREE more!