Thoughts of an old-timer.....
 

Oh dear, oh dear we are getting in a pickle aren't we.

There seems to be much debate about this BB at the moment and I thought I would share my observations with you...

When I first came across this Board in 1998 I thought it was fantastic. A hard-core of people shared experiences and the board was largely focused on FF program related issues.

Mid-way through last year, I changed jobs and drifted away from the board. When my life had calmed down a little I came back to FylerTalk thinking things would be largey the same. They weren't!

Rudi, Premex etc. were still around, but (no offence guys) they didn't seem as prolific as they once had. But apart from that the board had changed in other ways...

The focus had gone. This was no longer a forum about FF programs but a general travel forum, which is fine but general travel is an immotive and diverse subject and when you start talking general travel you risk getting awash with comment which is largely irrelevant to the majority.

In other words there is so much information around you can't find what you want or what interests you.

That is what I think has changed here. Maybe that is what people want, but it isn't what I used to liek about Flyertalk.

Now I am going to attribute responsibility for this change on someone (not blame because this may have been waht people want)... and the person is... Randy.

Randy has tried to make this forum all things to all men.

I think things got out of control during the time of PiP. I think Randy jumped on this "community" band-wagon and that was it the focus was gone. If you are talking community you are allowing people to talk about things which effect the community, but I once thought this Forum was not for that, but as I have said things have changed.

Another thing which I think is happening now which is very ugly is that people are attaching themselves to this forum and using it as a way of beating the travel industry with their Customer Service Complaints. Personally I don't like the practice of publishing letters to/from airlines/hotels etc. on this forum WHAT VALUE DOES IT ADD to the reader??

In a nutshell, this forum used to ADD VALUE by providing information - that seems to be a minor part of it's role now.

That's fine. But some of the people I consider the key-speakers have drifted away (when was the last time Baobab posted?) and the reason being is this forum has become to ambitious and has forgotten its reason for being here.

If you don't believe me, take a wonder through the posts and see how many actually give you some information which enables you to earn extra miles etc... This forum has drifted so much that there are 'orphan' web-sites which actually tell us what we used to seek here.


My view is if you want to get this board back to the great forum it once was, take the community stuff off-line (go so that somewhere else). Delete the threads such as OMNI; Community; Buzz etc.

Randy: Read your description of what this board is for and make the necessary changes so it gets back there.

I don't want to tell you how to do your job, but if things carry on as they are, the travel industry will start to think of this forum as a joke/pain and that will tarnish your Freddies and everything else you have worked so hard for.

If I was in Customer Service for an airline, I think I would be wary of anyone who allowed a forum which publicised Customer Service issues.

I mean this in as constructive a way as possible.

Nick

Well, I find the specific FF forums (United and Starwood for me) to be excellent places focused on breaking information about how to earn miles, etc. As for the community forums, how hard is it not to read them if you're not interested? I tend to skim through Omni and Buzz, read United and Starwood religiously, and participate in the community threads that interest me. This is one of the best places on the Internet I've ever found and I've been on the Internet since 1977. In 1979 I started one of the first non-work-related Internet mailing lists, SF-LOVERS, much to the chagrin of the system operators who had to deal with the overload. Similar comments were made then about ruining the Internet, etc. I appreciate the freedom of this medium, but the price of such freedom is eternal vigilance. Leaving a community, in my book, is a last resort. Instead, take a stand for the parts you love and lead by example.

My, that's two soapboxes for me already in 2000. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I follow FT in a similar manner to QL. I post often on the US Airways threads (my airline) and then "scan" the Buzz, Omni, Community and other threads for items of interest. I have read every post on the US Airways forum for almost a year now. Do I read every trip report, omni post or Hilton post? Nope. Most of them are of no interest to me. When I see one I like... I'm in. It probably takes even my slow little brain only a nanosecond to decide that a 500 mile bonus opportunity on SAS is of no interest to me. On I go to the next one.

I'm no expert, but I am convinced that the one thing we can count on is change. FT will continue to evolve and redefine itself... much in the same way we all do as people. Sorry folks, this bus is rolling and we are the collective driver. If we head down a road I'm not comfortable with, I'll pull the cord and get off at the next stop... no transfers either!

Until then, I'll continue to read and enjoy the threads that interest me. And I'll skip those that do not. And I'll continue to meet up with FT'ers for a beer here and a steak there...

Change. Here it comes and I for one am looking forward to it. Enjoy the ride.
It's a sunny day! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif



[This message has been edited by geo1004 (edited 03-04-2000).]

When I found Flyertalk, I was amazed at what I found and what I was learning about something that was quickly peaking my interest, frequent flying. At first it was for pleasure and then I got the chance at business flying and was hooked.

I read posts everyday from Rudi, PremEx, Baobab, and Merry. I didn't know who these people were but I did enjoy reading their messages and usually found a tip in every post. Now most of the postings are about mypoints, or how many United FA's sit in FC, or how quanity of posts is better than the quality of the posts. And as Merry has pointed out, a lot of the "old timers" have stopped posting.

I am in the same boat as QuietLion and Geo1004 above me, I am getting to read the Continental and Marriott forums and starting to skip the rest as it is not giving me the information that used to be here.

Thank you for you post, Nick, it is good to see you back on the board. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif You are right the board has changed.

As geo1004 has stated, The inevitablility of change is unequivocally inevitable. Let's face it, we simply can't stuff the genie back into the bottle.

While I was not here at the very beginning, I have been around most of FlyerTalk's life and have thoroughly enjoyed every minute of it. Certainly as new people come on board, they will have some of the same questions that we have had in the past during that phase of our learning cycle, and it seems to me that whenever that has happened, some very computer clever Old Timer has courteously directed them to the existing thread.

The key is courtesy at all times--even when some member of our ever growing population makes a post with which we disagree or does not interest us. As new people come from other boards with less decorum than we enjoy, it may take them a while to understand the high degree of general civility which prevails FlyerTalk. During that learning curve (which may take longer for some than for others), we Old (To Medium Old) Timers must all take great care to remain gracious, and (as QuietLion pointed out) lead by example.

As parents we quickly learn that it is far more effective to reinforce the behavior we wish to encourage with lots of attention, and to ignore that which we wish will go away. I believe this philosophy works equally effectively here as in our homes.

It is true that there are simply too many posts now for most of us to read all of them, and that is fine. I for one happen to love the Community which includes many people whom I have grown to know and care about very much. On the other hand, I rarely read The Buzz these days because I focus primarily on flying and credit card miles, but I am still very happy that it is there for folks who want to find every last possible way of adding on more miles. There are occasions, however, when some other FlyerTalker has directed me via e-mail to a specific promotion on The Buzz, much to my benefit.

As long as we are all mature, tolerant and open minded, I sincerely believe the Board can continue to grow and change to the benefit of all for many years to come. I sure hope so! My life would be a less rich and diverse mosaic without all that I have gained from FlyerTalk. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif




[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 03-04-2000).]

Boy this is a great thread. Everybody has articulated their view points very well and I agree with most all of them. I can't really think of anything to add but to say while I can relate to everything Merry has commented on, I think my opinion on this is pretty much what Quietlion posted above.

Nick,

Glad to see your post. Having been here under 2 different monikers (jaws43 & JAWS_II) since early 1998, my interest in the original purpose of this board is waning. I have reduced myself to looking at items that have an effect on my travel and posting only rarely. I agree with QL and sincerely aspire that (a big aspiration) this board will somehow return to meaningful items.

Just to add to what geo and others have said, my typical section of Flyertalk includes these steps:

Open my USAirways bookmark and view all new messages. like geo I read every message (and reply to most of them! <g> )

Open my 'posted today' bookmark and read only those that interest me, which are interestingly enough posts complaining about United, Marriott, Hertz and iterinaries.

Works for me. If I am bored, I'll open up other threads like I did right now. No muss, no fuss!

Everyone has made great points here.

I'm sad that things have to change. But do there?

There are a few things that haven't (at least for me http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

*I'm still getting good information from this board.
*IT's still my most frequently visited Web Site (when not tinkering with the Catman Do 2 Web Site at:
http://home.att.net/~m.blanchards/12.cat-man-do-2.html

*The friendships, the family that I have built from the board... that will not change.

It's that last point that we should all keep in mind. Flyertalk itself may change, but the friendships haven't.

And it will always be great for me to meet New members of the community and helping them out.

So let's focus on that.

Maybe that is why Randy wanted someone to watch his back http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Remember your promise Catman http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Incidentally that was for a proposal to create an extra forum, which is exactly the opposite of what Merry is proposing. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum73/HTML/000089.html

I have been here from the start with two monikers (pgupta011, PG). In a sense I can relate to what Merry is saying, although I feel that the problem is more a problem of growth. Some of the people (Rudi, PremEx) are still posting a lot, but as a percentage of total posts, it is less.

I am not sure if eliminating forums will help. Partly because folks have got used to posting. I am all for abolishing OMNI, but will folks still post what they are posting on OMNI to the "super" forum. If so, it will not increase the focus. And for some forums like say community, I actually prefer a separate forum, since I rarely visit it, and having a large number of forums is good because then I can just visit the ones of interest. Merry, if I understand what you are saying about taking it off-line, that would likely not be welcomed by a large number of people, some of whom have already posted here, though no one has come flat out against it probably in deference to you.

"The Buzz" is supposed to be the forum for discussion of FF programs.

Mileage earning opportunities have not decreased, since the web has grown a lot and the web sites are throwing a lot of freebies and incentives.

I agree with the comments on beating the airlines/reps and the publishing of letters, but some people find the letters very useful. To each their own.

It is hard to find things sometime. We need a better search engine, and possibly even a cataloging mechanism like Yahoo. But that is probably too much work.

I agree that baobab is missed.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 03-05-2000).]

I agree with Merry on a key point and that is people venting their customer service issues here. 99% of the problems are limited to the person making the claim. I almost never have had the same problem even though I fly the same airline and stay in the same hotel. I feel sorry for the airline or hotel staff that have to deal with the people complaining.

Let's try to stop such postings and concentrate on what is useful to the reader. If you get stuck in weather and the airline didn't take as good care of you as you wished, keep it to yourself.

As many of our veteran posters have said, common sense and a pleasant manner will get you much farther than complaining.

Oh come on, Merry Flyer! You used to spoil for the sort of contention that is swirling around FT these days. Please don't tell me you've gone soft in your old age!

BTW, Even though I can be a bit of a whiner I agree with you 100%, and if you check the records, I was one of the few who lobbied against the original expansion of the forums. Alas.

[This message has been edited by Matt Wald (edited 03-05-2000).]

The number of forums is irrelevant. The issue is what is being posted. The focus has expanded greatly from just frequent flyer program. Now it is parties, jokers, hobbies, general travel industry news, ... etc. I think that earlier it was much more focused on just frequent flyer programs. If we are going to talk about all these things, then I think that having a larger number of forums is appropriate.

In defense of Randy he is very reluctant to increase the number of forums. The current forum list simply represents what we all collectively want.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 03-05-2000).]

PG: My point is that, this board used to (I am not sure about anymore) havea message when you first logged on specifying that it was about FF programes - general travel chat was directed elsewhere.

By creating the extra forums, this board has been allowed to loose focus, and as I result I think is a much less vibrant and relevant place (my view only, I accept other disagree).

Because there is a lack of focus, some people feel legitimate in posting about non-FF topics.

Get back to the origional reason-detre and you have solved the problem?


Matt: "spoil for contention" me? I think it may be time to do a phoenix job, you know me to well....

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif Rising from the ashes, eh, Merry? IMHO, it is about time. This "house" needs some remodeling. YOU DA MAN!

I guess I fall into the same camp as PremEx, Catman & QL (even you too Mr Nuts you J31 loving guy) as this is still my most frequently visited web site and I tend to focus on UA, Community and Itineraries. However, some forums such as "The Buzz" don't interest me at all anymore.

It is invevitable as the community grows the dynamics of the conversations change. I agree with Merry on the trashing customer service comments. I would like to think FT is above all that. And perhaps I am too quick to defend my favorite airline, but they take very good care of me and while they are not perfect it is still very good. Like I am perfect myself anyway. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Yes, it is different place from that I stumbled across than back in the fall of 1998, and it is still a gem of a site. But then again, would we all still be here if it had changed for the worse.

Merry, I'm glad to see you back again. Tree, where are you?

Some great frequent flyer tips in this thread, eh?

Are you all just wasting time here?

Just for the record, I love reading about customer service experiences, good or bad.

I agree with Quiet Lion. What better place to post Customer Service problems?

I personally try to resolve all my issues directly, but when all my good faith efforts fail, I definitely think this is the place to turn for advice and suggestions. I have, for example, left serveral messages for Denise Harvill with regard to the attempted theft of my laptop by UAL employees in January and to date have received no response. I plan to write her later today and will post my letter.

I think companies have a duty to treat their customers well and if they fail to do so, they must accept responsibility for the consequences of their failure to act.

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 03-06-2000).]

arturo sea thes es guud thred untel pingpong postie.

------------------
loving, caring, honest, intelligent, empathetic, creative, and giving.

I've been a lurker in FT for a month or so.

As someone who has resumed air travel after a nine year layoff I am astonished at how much the industry has changed in those years.

This forum has been a tremendous benefit in getting me back in the groove as it relates to air travel. I've learned a great deal which I have been able to apply immediately and a great deal which I have filed away for future reference.

This forum is fortunate indeed to have a "membership" of savvy travelers who share their experiences and knowledge for the benefit of all. For that, I am most appreciative.

Speaking from a "newbie" perspective I find it quite easy to pick and choose those topics that interest me and skip over those that don't. If in doubt, I open the topic. Often times I find useful info within.

Hey Sand Wedge,

Welcome to FF heaven. It's good to see some "newbies" joining our discussions. What I always remember is if I pick up a good idea, then I try to leave one. Speaking for myself, I look forward to your contributions.

Betcha can't hit a 1 iron. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Like LIFE.. There are good and bad
things.. That goes for customer
service issues as it relates to
airlines, hotels, credit card
companies, long distance companies
etc...
If there is a blank statement like
I think XYZ airline customer service
stinks! With nothing to
back up the statement. That is
wrong.. Sunstantiate what your
saying.. I'll be the first one to
admit .. If I see a wrong.. Like
that $1.00 surcharge initiated for
electronic tickets by Delta.(They
dropped it
after customer feedback)I'd be one
of the first people to post on FT
about it. That move was BAD customer
service by Delta.. Also another
customer service issue on the
Healthy Choice mileage certificates
thing. I hope the information
EVERYBODY posted benefited someone.
I know it helped me... In addition
I'd be one of the first the praise a
organization that has done right..OR
corrected a customer service
problem..

Just my five cents... on your
statement on the customer service
issue.This board has supplied
valuable information to me.In turn I
hope that a few of my posts have
benefited others....

Mike Mahoney
P.S. Change has it's good and bad
points. There is no doubt this has
occured on our beloved Flyer Talk!
[This message has been edited by
MIKE MAHONEY (edited 03-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by MIKE MAHONEY (edited 03-06-2000).]

Originally posted by JAWS_II:

Betcha can't hit a 1 iron.

JAWS_II

Thanks for the warm welcome.

The five wood replaced the 1 iron years ago. Worst $40 I ever spent on golf equipment.

My .02:

More is less.

There has been a great deal of growth in the number of people posting here. I can't blame anyone for wanting to have a different experience of FT than I do...as long as that experience doesn't ruin it for the rest of us. If conga lines, point bonus offers, etc are enjoyed, then let them be enjoyed. When they prevent me and others from sharing thoughts about frequent travel, then it is not acceptable.

We can't and shouldn't turn the clock back and tell all of the people who joined "our home" in the last year to pack-up and go away. So the suggestion is add extensions to the house, give everyone their own room, and ask everyone to respect boundaries.

I don't want more forums because I'd like to read them. I want more forums because others can post to their hearts content there, and I can avoid them. As we each choose the forums to view and track, we each can enjoy our unique Flyertalk experiences.

I too read the Buzz, General Travel, then my program forums (Continental, Hilton) in a typical visit. When I have more time, I check OMNI and the Community. I check trip reports about once a month. Boy, would I appreciate it if there were one or two new forums that would effectively siphon off the unrelated stuff from the forums I read into their own area.

As for "complaints", we each can decide for ourselves if one is legitimate, but reading about other frequent traveler's experiences (good and bad) and how the company involved responds (or doesn't) to complaints is one of the most important parts of my Flyertalk experience. I have made quite a few travel decisions based upon what I've read here. Companies should be aware of the fact that a bad experience posted here will affect their bottom line in some way - alienating one customer will loose them more than one. The reverse is also true, as I've given business to companies that have been praised here.

So more (forums) is less (unrelated posts in the ones I read), and I can't wait to again enjoy what for me will be a return to a more SPAM free Flyertalk.




[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 03-08-2000).]

Speaking as another new participant, it seems like a matter of separating the wheat from the chaff.

In the scant weeks I've been reading the boards here I have learned so much that it amazes me. Some evenings I feel like I'm sitting at the feet of travel masters just soaking up the atmosphere.

Yes, I've waded through a lot of whining and complaining but I've seen evidence of great insight, humor and friendship -- qualities that gave a perpetual lurker the incentive to join in.

None of us who have come to the party late can truly appreciate the dynamic that brought FlyerTalk to what it is, but I for one am grateful that it's still here and still pretty unique.

The wheat seems worth it. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

ThirdDegree,

Welcome to the board! If felt the same way as you do when I first joined, first by lurking and then by posting. You will have to make it to one of the get togethers that are posted. You will find out how enjoyable the people are and you will feel most welcome. Besides, your picture will probably end up on the NET!

Thanks, newself. I look forward to the opportunity to attend an event and meet some of the faces behind the IDs!

I've lurked on this issue for a while. I guess it is time to chime in.

I tend to think that more is better. As long as threads have meaningful names, and are started in the correct Forum, I see no objection to a broad range of travel related discussion.

I typically go to the day's active topics, reading most in my regular fora (AC, CP, UA, *) and interesting looking ones in others. It doesn't bother me in the least that there are dozens of new or revived threads that I'm not interested in--I just skip them.

I think the breadth of information is helpful. I am interested not only in FF programs, but also is general travel experiences.

In reviewing various threads trying to get caught up after a brief time offline, it seems that there's again been a substantial increase in bickering and a (related?) decrease in information sharing! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

What is the problem after all?

I hope Boomer won't mind my quoting him here!
"My best suggestion to Catman and everyone else? Treat Flyertalk for what it is, a place to share ideas and comments, no more, no less. We aren't talking about world peace here, we're talking about miles for heaven's sake. This isn't life and death, lets not treat it that way."

For heavens sakes, perhaps we can remember that the boards are/should be a great place to learn and to be somewhat playfully entertained for 24hrs/day. Specific personal feelings regarding one anothers' differences should NOT be discussed online in FT, IMHO.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Not a "new" suggestion! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

As Randy noted after the last ugly episode that became so egregious as to lead to deletion of the thread:

TALK TRAVEL

Were talking airlines, hotels, miles and points! Perhaps's we can maintain some focus and have threads dealing with these specific issues and NOT bearing remarks about posts and posters! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Let's PLEASE ALL let the other silliness go! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

We will surely ALL benefit! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by doc (edited 09-08-2000).]

I'd never mind my friend Doc quoting me.

I'm aslo glad you resurrected this thread.
I think I missed this thread when it was originally started. I don't remember why, I
don't think I was away on vacation, I probably just saw the topic and decided not to read it.

I wish I had read it at that time, as some sound advice is contained here.

A couple of people talked about reading flyertalk selectively. Thats exactly what I do. I generally read CO,NW,HP,HILTON,STARWOOD forums. Those are the airlines/hotels I use. I havent flown US in over 6 years, I have zero interest in their FF program, so I dont read it.
I scan the Buzz/Community/General/News/Trip reports for topics that pertain to me.
I also look at who started the topic. Frankly there are people on FT I don't like or don't like what they post. I'm sure there are just as many FT'ers that feel that way about me. This is fine, nobody has to read anything they don't want to.

I, too, have become quite selective in my reading. Not quite an old-timer, and not a prolific poster, I've changed my FT habits from a year ago. A lot of new members, conga lines, boring posters, flaming wars, etc. have affected my decisions of what to read. Actually, I read all the forums Boomer reads except exchange HP, Hilton, and News for Delta and Marriott. Never go near United, always something ugly brewing there. Let's read USA Today and WSJ, as opposed to the Enquirer or a Harlequin novel. And avoiding certain posters? I agree.

Let's talk travel. I'll do my best to contribute a little more. I've been to my share of FT get-togethers, and met many members. I think we have a good community going here, and need to focus a little harder.

Linda

Gee Nick, everywhere I go today, there you are?! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Boomer's comments on being selective ring true to most of us, right? FT is just one component in an already hectic, overscheduled life and I would imagine few have the time to read everything posted.

But also take note that the overwhelming number of posts makes it difficult to avoid certain posters. They literally are everywhere, all the time. The fact that they spread invective and cast flame bait in generous amounts is even harder to ignore. For the most part, I have followed the harder path.

Look at the date of Merry's original post. March. Long before the "thunder from down under" -- someone else's words (and sorry I don't recall whom to attribute). It only gets worse...

At some point, the noise-to-signal ratio becomes too high for tolerance.

"...That's fine. But some of the people I consider the key-speakers have drifted away (when was the last time Baobab posted?) and the reason being is this forum has become to[o] ambitious and has forgotten its reason for being here....

Perhaps Nick is correct? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

doc, why do you always find it necessary to dredge up old news? do you enjoy it? or can't you simply let things be?

snowman

Sorry, snowman, I see it the other way around.

Sometimes it's good (particularly with more and more new folks around) to also remember where we came from. There's nothing like some posts from the (relative) past to put some stuff in perspective - or just to give a "historical" taste of FT for that matter.

Many of us don't have the time to look through old threads - I personally don't mind an occasional reminder.

[This message has been edited by bokich (edited 11-24-2000).]

Hmmm...

While I still stand by the general idea expressed in my previous post, I thought I’d just clarify that I naively posted it before having a chance to catch up on reading the last couple days of posts.

I've now seen the full extent of “old posting” going on (apparently doc's not the only one). I have no specific comment on any of that activity and the surrounding discussion.

(And now I suppose I'm just as guilty of pushing an old thread back to the top... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif )


[This message has been edited by bokich (edited 11-26-2000).]

"GUILTY!"

And the sentence is what? "A lifetime of participation in FT with absolutely NO chance ever of being paroled! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

C'mon, Ben, 2 days? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif I'd hope the "forces that be" would allow you to slide by in this case - perhaps with just a warning! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Naturally, IMHO, you're "NOT GUILTY!!!" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

FT, as I see it, is a forum for the free, honest and respectful expression of ideas and information, rather than a place where individuals might come to be judged! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif

As a newcomer to this forum it's interesting with a little "History" lesson. As for me: I read what's related to FF programs (or other points programs) and when someone writes about "I've seen a great plant in City XYZ" then I just don't read it. Of course it would be nice if those topics weren't there at all (afterall there are so many general travel forums around but very few FF boards with trafic) but with logic one would think that if everybody stuck on the specific subject of FF then those who didn't would slowly but surely drift away since nobody was paying any attention to them.

Comments are welcome and no offence is meant.

------------------
Goldlust

skol and welcome Goldlust.

well - beside talking ff-miles and occasionally some flame wars here, I think that some great community feeling here in the two and a half year long run of this board 'produced' great friendships thorugh this board (it did for me).

Enjoy and please accept, that, 'a reasonable amount' of personal experiences / jokes / happenings are also shared on this board and are welcome to at least some of us, who, when there were may have been only 30 to 50 regular posters in the first months, surely helped to start Randy's board with reasonable informations and maintain 'unwritten' acceptable standards/rules.