curt don't you ever argue with oz !

Du überrscht mich immer wieder.

Bernie .. Curt wasn't "arguing" .. I know what he is saying, and I was careful not to leave any doubt about what I referring to.

Apart from the USA, Australia has the shortest European colonised history of any of the major countries.

I believe that the first English settlement in North America was started at Jamestown in May of 1609, while the first English settlement in Australia began in 1788, landing first in January in Botany Bay, and then moving on to seek a better harbor at Port Jackson as I recall.

We Americans and Australians both, however, still tend to be more rough and tumble than our more sophisticated Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern and European friends who enjoy the privilege of a far richer heritage of culture and civilization. Just try to be very patient with us. Eventually we will acquire thousands of years of refinement to smooth off our rough edges. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif



[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 07-31-2000).]

Punki didn't the "Goldrausch" in the Seattle area start at the very time, when people down under just started building .... prisons for all the Brits, who couldn't be sent to America any more ? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

The first European settlement in North America was not at Jamestown I don't believe.

I understand the Spanish (and yes, they are not English!) founded Santa Fe 50 years before the Pilgrim landing at Plymouth rock? I suspect not a lot of Americans are aware of that fact.

(And I always smile when I hear people tell me Christopher Columbus discovered the USA - he never set foot on the place!)

In fact I saw on TV only this week on north eastern Newfoundland that they were celebrating the 1000 year arrival of the Vikings. Many older Canadians may not agree, but Newfie is certainly part of North America. I was there 2 years ago and that ancient settlement is quite real - and quite a tourist attraction.

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ozstamps//moose.htm

And yes, another 1000 years or so of refinement will hopefully let us have the same deep history as many other still surviving strong cultures .. not just European, but Asian, African, and Middle Eastern etc.



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 07-31-2000).]

However, as my word splitting friend Oz might say,

I suspect that the English had little influence in Santa Fe in the early days. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

GOTCHA!

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 07-31-2000).]

OK, Oz fess up and admit that I did get my English trick posted before you posted your edit including reference thereto.

Good God. Am I getting as bad as you foolish, testosterone-burdened male types. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

Enough fun and games for me for today, I must go indulge in serious business. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cool.gif

Faithfully yours, QP of FT

I am sooooooo©® jealous, until now Punki's attribute my word splitting friend was exclusively reserved for me http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 07-31-2000).]

Don't you worry Rudi, I still have lots of descriptions which are reserved exclusively for you. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Punki - You Seattle Smoothie! It is 3.30am here, and I really thought it DID read "European", but after a few beers .... well who could be SURE. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

That just cost you one Altbier if we can talk you into coming to Dusseldorf!

You forgot the whiskers ...

>^..^< <---MEOW!!!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

As a proud native of the Old Dominion I am compelled to point out to Punki that Jamestown, the first >permanent< English settlement in North America, was two years earlier in May 1607 (See: http://www.apva.org/history/index.html).

Twnty years earlier, the English established a colony on Roanoke Island in what is now North Carolina, which disappeared without a trace and is now known as the "Lost Colony".

The settlers who landed at Plymouth Rock known as Pilgrims were headed for Virginia, but went off-course. The same happened to the first settlers of Bermuda whose ship wrecked there enroute to the Virginia colony.

Just a bit of history on a thread which seems to be meandering with no apparent destination.

Along the hitory tangent, Oz, with all due respect, an assertion such as:

is so muddled as to render it meaningless.

By "shortest European colonised history" do you mean that it was colonized for the shortest duration or that it was colonized most recently????

Australia 1788-1901 (113 years, ending 99 years ago).

USA 1607-1776 (169 years, ending 224 years ago).

But the British Raj in India from 1858 - 1947 (89 years, ending 53 years ago) is "shorter" by either meaning.
(please do not confuse the influence of the East India Company with "colonisation" [your word and the Queen's spelling]. Academic consensus (such as it is) marks 1857 as the delineation between "influence" and "colonization." And please do not insult the largest democracy in the world by saying it is not a "major country."

The Belgian "colonisation" of the Congo Free State/Belgian Congo from 1885-1960 (75 years, ending 40 years ago) and French Indochina 1861-1954 (93 years ending 46 years ago) also makes claims for "shorter" colonization by either term, but depending on your definitions could reasonably not be considered a "major" country.

Was the Nazi occupation of France "colonisation"? Certainly in the minds of the Nazis Poland (1939-1945; 6 years ending 55 years ago) was a colony; it was often referred to as the "eastern colonies" by Nazis.

I could go on an on, but you get the point (time for another "edit?").

I can see acknowledging a post you agree with or support one by answering with a smilie but I thought doing so would be considered poor usage of bandwidth. Is this a wrong assumptions? If so then I shall fire away in future!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by A Flygirl (edited 07-31-2000).]

bernie,
There wasn't any gold of significance found in the Puget Sound area. However, approximately 100 years ago, gold was discovered in the Klondike in Alaska. Seattle, being essentially the last bastion of civilization before reaching the Klondike, made for a fabulous location for supply stores. The most famous of them still in existence is the one founded by the Nordstrom family (but they didn't let you return your shoes back then).

The Alaskan's still have a degree of resentment for the position that Seattle has...many consider it to be the largest city in Alaska. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif Even "their" airline (AS) relocated to Seattle.

ozstamps wrote:
Correct on both counts. Santa Fe is, in fact, the oldest city in the US, insofar as it is still the "same" city as the one founded by the Spaniards.

Yup. I like to point out that the US banks are closed on October 10 to celebrate an Italian, funded by the Spanish, who discovered the Carribean. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

Mr. nutz,
I bow before your superiority in world history. Imagine if you had put that effort toward tennis! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

Rudi,
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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Michael