I think that Chinese History students at Stanford and other US universities would probably have views about China similar to Moondog's. Those Chinese History students who study at Beida and Qinghua would undoubtedly have views mirroring shmj. Its up to the reader to decide which view is more relevant and which university offers a better course of instruction...analyize both views and take your pick.

Also when shmj says in one of his posts about Tibet, "it's a well known fact" I chuckled when I read this because living in China I've learned that whenever I read or hear this from a Chinese source what follows is undoubetdly something that is definitely not a "well known fact" and is usually an issue that is extremely controversial and debateable. For instance "it's a well known fact that Taiwan has always been a part of China" or "it's a well known fact that China has 56 ethnic minorities" or "it's a well known fact that China invented golf" All of these are definitely not "well known facts" but Xinhua and people whose only source of information is Xinhua love to talk about "well known facts".

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point (because it would be hard to argue my side without sounding elitist.... and I don't want to come across like that.)

Yes. My "better half". ;)

I consider myself "half Chinese" for two reasons: My wife's ethnicity, and my love for the Chinese language and culture. If you are just looking at my race, I am a pure-bred 100% American mutt.

What I find laughable and silly is the assertion by the ambassador that China's history is a history of peace, and that somehow the Chinese people are inherently more peace-loving than other nations. This is, of course, absurd. China's history is just as bloody and rife with violence and suffering, if not more, than most other nations. And most other nations are just as peace-loving, if not more, than China.

Certainly the people of China who lived through the horrors of the Cultural Revolution have an understandable motivation to want peace in their lives. But this is no more than basic human nature, a nature that is shared by most people of all nations.

For the dear ambassador to completely ignore the facts of history and make an assertion that "Europe has a history of war but China has a history of peace" is just ridiculous.

I know that Bush-bashing is quite "in vogue" these days. But I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is indeed a "peace-loving guy". I think he genuinely would prefer world peace to the current situation. I think he also believes that you don't just sit still and let yourself be a punching bag for your enemies. You can debate whether his actions in attacking Iraq were right or wrong. But the popular view of him as a blood-thirsty war monger is just inaccurate, and doesn't advance the ability to have rational debate on the issues, IMO.

Moondog, I can't believe above words from your mouth, because it's a kind of shallow and extreme points. When you just know A but no more acknowledge on B, then you thought your are totally right that comparing A higher than B, it's obey the rule of judging by fact. You didn't respect the truth and basic rule.

It's an insult on both human wisdom and all scholars who are working ahard to find the truth and real valuable info. From your point extending out, one can say Bill Gates is better than Steve Jobs because he makes much more money than latter, how many people would agree with this?

I hope present China would be richer than US or other developed countried, then no any main problems cause by poor or lacking money, plus a rich China would find a lot of enthusiasts to help to comment on other countries shortages including on polictics.

To all the people everywhere in the world! ^

If Steve Jobs claimed he knows better about Microsoft than any top management in MS or Bill Gates claimed he know more about Apple than any top management in Apple, how many people would believe this?

Do you mean you deny the fact that nowadys Tibel is part of China? So when you intend to go to Tibet which country you have to get permission from? Taiwan is same as Hongkong was ceded by weak Qin dynasty, this is fact. If you like, we can find our support on history documents to compare and prove. I just wonder where did you get to prove that Tibet and Taiwan are not part of China? Because they should be part of US? If someone doubt US should return the land to back to residential Indians, what will be your reaction? Will you use as "it's a well kknown fact that..."?

Hey, pls view each post carefully, as I have stated before and have to re-state here, I'm a female not a guy, a female should have equal right to express her opinion.

I don't think it's very important that where are you from, but to be nice is most important, since you claimed you are half Chinese, then you should be more understanding and tolerant on China and its people. If you can strip the culture and history from its people and country, then it's no any use for you to find root.

I think on this point you are not smarter than the ambassador, if you were an ambassador, will you comment your country's internal affairs on the international issues? He meant to say China is a country would not attack any other country. But I don't want to speak for him much more, as it's maybe 95% true during the 2000 years history. But nowadays it's 100% true.

Hope he didn't say this as it's a contradiction aroused personal point.

Since you can speak for Bush on Irap war, I want to know how much profit the regular Irapi people get, do they get higher and happoer living standard? What US get from this war? I don't know about Bush's personality, but on this issue you can't say he didn't lie. I wonder if there is any politician no lying.

If by "be more understanding and tolerant" you mean "completely ignore reality", then sorry, my western half won't allow it. ;)



Oh, I think you are absolutely right. I am not smart enough to obfuscate reality and tell outright lies to make people feel better about my country.


Well, I am sure the citizens of Taiwan will be glad to know this. Oh, that's right. Taiwan is not an "other" country. :rolleyes:



:confused: :confused:



Please point out where I am speaking for Bush on the Iraq war. I simply stated my opinion that Bush is not the blood-thirsty war monger that some critics like to paint him as.

Or diplomat, for that matter. ;)

I think Steve Jobs is smarter than Bill Gates when it comes to working with China. Steve Jobs can pay $80 per month for factory workers in Guangdong to get his Ipods made. Bill Gates is lucky if 10% of Microsoft operating systems in China are not bootleg.

Much of the discussion on this thread provides the perfect demonstration of what some posters have asserted: That whether or not discussing politics in China is 'bad form', it's very often a complete waste of time.

Ignorance, prejudice, and national pride often remove any possibility of reasonable debate, and in some cases logic and truth simply go out of the window in the interest of 'winning' the argument (although this is not, as some other postings demonstrate, solely a Chinese problem). And there's always the good old standby, beloved of Xinhua as much as the 'As everyone knows...' strategy accurately skewered by another poster above, of attacking the other person rather than what he has to say.

Here's a good example of what is to be encountered in China all the time:

Based on the Chinese goverment's own distorted figures, 144 million people in China currently live on US$1 per day or less, and as many as 600 million on US$2 per day or less. Since the government issues these figures in order to put itself in a good light (!), you can be quite sure the situation is worse, and it takes little travel in China (outside Shanghai, by those with their rose-tinted glasses off) to encounter it.

I dare say most other countries finding 40% of their population living this far 'under standard condition' would indeed call this 'a major social problem'.

Making any real progress on discussing politics is effectively impossible when dealing with those determined to see China in a good light in every possible case, whether or not they actually have information or experience to back up their position.

In real life, as in this thread, it's better to move on to discuss something else.

Peter N-H

The reality is what is thought in your mind of weastern part. I don't think it's a matter if you feel better on my country or not, it doesn't affect my life. But it's my obligation to make clear what's unilateral and untrue points on China.

God, you think you are spokesman for Taiwan? :confused: :confused:

When you are in a discussion about polictian's lie but you claimed you're talking about his other good traits, if this can't be called "support".

Or president, also for the matter.

If someone claims the 5 pages on this thread are waste of time, I hope many other FTers without same opinion as I don't think.

Ignorance, prejudice, and national pride often remove any possibility of reasonable debate, and in some cases logic and truth simply go out of the window in the interest of 'winning' the argument

I'm very proud that a Chinese can be entitled those wonderful compliments usually used for the gentlemen from G.B. it's really an honor for a Chinese. Did the Chinese try to remove the debate? Did the Chinese say anything without any fact support? If there is only choice for the Chinese that agree the opponent opinions or nod her head to any westerner on whatever he is saying, then the "Debate" is very interesting, then the Chinese is good no intention to remove the debate? I hope there is still any debate if all same opinions. This is a good example that someone can't stand different opinion.

[QUOTE=Peter N-H]Here's a good example of what is to be encountered in China all the time:

Based on the Chinese goverment's own distorted figures, 144 million people in China currently live on US$1 per day or less, and as many as 600 million on US$2 per day or less. Since the government issues these figures in order to put itself in a good light (!), you can be quite sure the situation is worse, and it takes little travel in China (outside Shanghai, by those with their rose-tinted glasses off) to encounter it.

I dare say most other countries finding 40% of their population living this far 'under standard condition' would indeed call this 'a major social problem'.[QUOTE=Peter N-H]

Do you think 144 million people plus 600 million living under standard line is not a huge population to be cared?

[QUOTE=Peter N-H]Making any real progress on discussing politics is effectively impossible when dealing with those determined to see China in a good light in every possible case, whether or not they actually have information or experience to back up their position.[QUOTE=Peter N-H]

Pls say something constructive, then there is progressive, I hope you will not think only you have information or experience to back up your position.

Pls do not remove any possibility of reasonable debate.

I think it's a waste of time to talk politics. If we agree, we do. If we don't, do you think logic, reason or facts are going to change our views? Of course not.

Fortunately, you did't say any words in the last 5 pages, so I don't need to feel regret to waste your time; plus your individual opinion can't represent that from all others, at least not me, so pls use I not we to say something. But if you meant to say we westners are against you Chinese, I will have no word to say. Your appearance is really in time, it breaks my dream that the westerners are more open and democratic and be prone to accept different things, but now I'm awaken, it's impossible to talk about any truth or reality with someone who determined againt Chinese, this is not a place to show what a Chinese sees and thinks; to my surprise, at this point, why all the western FTers have almost same attitude or opinion, it's impossible to get without being educated or affected by their government or media. I'm afraid it will really be a kind of waste of time if someone would just express an attitude like ok we will not stand you whatever you say no matter it's true or not. Fortunately again, this is not from the FT administration, otherwise I may have no chance to post here.