That's been my experience. Shanghai people seem to be very
foreigner friendly. In Shanghai you don't get stared at or
hussled. Living in such a progressive city the people are
more focused on improving their lifestyle through hard work
than dwelling on political issues.

Once a 5 year old kid pointed to me and told his mother " weiguoren".
That sums up the extent of racial prejudice in Shanghai.

Sorry, but I've never cared enough about being to reach a few particular websites to bother about this either. Amongst the vast numbers that are blocked there are few that I really care about.

It's worth noting that what is blocked varies not only over time, but also on where you are trying from. From top-rate hotels it's sometimes possible to reach sites inaccessible from three-star ones, and those living in expat-oriented compounds, or in housing principally occupied by the families of reasonably senior cadres, or working in some office buildings with foreign or joint-venture companies, can sometimes reach things that the rest of the populace cannot. In short it's similar to the same situation as with getting access to the BBC TV, although even where that's available it will be blocked at strategic intervals. This situation sometimes misleads those in China for short periods so that they claim that there's far more access to foreign media than there actually is.

I've never found the BBC World Service blocked in Real Audio format, and that's good enough for me without bothering with websites. And Blogspot sites and similar (although I did read somewhere recently that blanket blocking of Blogspot had ceased in favour of just blocking the blogs with something critical to say about China) I can live without. I thought it was quite possible that the lalaoshi blog would be blocked, but then apparently it isn't at least from some locations. But all the author would need to do would be to insert a few keywords and it would be blocked fairly quickly. Lists of these keywords have been published quite widely, by the way, such as on the EastSouthWestNorth blog (blocked in China). Those on the list Moondog gives above are included, of course.

I'm not sure what the point of this is supposed to be. It may be true that homesickness, alienation, and ignorance breed intolerance, but that's hardly what this particular blog is about, is it? No doubt the author can stand up for himself. But although I don't always agree with what he writes, dislike much of the language used, and indeed only occasionally look at his blog, that fact is that unlike the majority of foreigners in China (and there's many a long-term expat who hasn't a clue what's happening, let alone short-term teacher), he's a Mandarin speaker who has lived and worked for a few years in China as a journalist for Kyodo News, scrutinising the culture. And his wife works for Agence France-Presse. His comments, many of which are thoughtful and ring true to anyone with long term experience of China, and not all of which are negative, are hardly the stuff of a 'bulletin board like that'. The follow-up comments his readers leave are mostly serious responses to what he had said, and receive sane replies. If you disagree with what he had to say, you could do worse than take it up with him there.

But if there weren't actually any greens in the bottom of his soup when the waitress said there were, or if he was lied to by the airline, does it matter if he's a teacher, a journalist, or a nuclear physicist? If more of us than already have done so start listing here examples of all this would that in turn make this thread the same as a 'bulletin board like that'?

The point is that the nature of discourse is different in China, and much of what Giles noted a century ago is undeniably still present today, as attested by many other long-term residents of China otherwise perfectly happy with their lot, from teacher to technocrat. The important thing particularly for those living in China is to learn to read this kind of discourse, and learn to deal with China on its own terms. It isn't going to change just to please the odd foreigner.

Returning to the original topic of discussing politics, there's another lalaoshi post that has some relevance:

http://lalaoshi.livejournal.com/61585.html

This anecdote goes back to March 2003. I tell it now because I can't forget it.

When I got to my assigned, paid-for seat on a train from Jinan to Xuzhou, I found a man already in it. I said he was in my seat. He said our train had no assigned seating. I found a conductor who made the man, as well as a woman sitting across from him, get out so I could sit. Apparently they had standing-only tickets from a point further up the line and had crashed the seats because they were empty before the train reached Jinan.

William Ding, a wine agent in Beijing, sat down in the woman's seat after the conductor rousted the squatters. He had bought an assigned-seat ticket as I did. Chatting en route to Xuzhou, I got Ding's business card and learned the usual personal details that passenger-strangers exchange on boring rides. When we reached the subject of train tickets, I mentioned the prior occupation of our seats and gave him a friendly you-were-there-too look. He looked away and smiled sheepishly. No camaraderie.

I suspect Ding was embarrassed that he didn't raise the seat-squatter issue but benefited from my willingness to raise it. He was probably further embarrassed that a foreigner had made life convenient for him, a Chinese person, in China, by using the Chinese system (appealing to train management) to strike at fellow Chinese citizens (the two squatters). It should have happened the other way around, if anything, he probably thought. He might have felt extra ....ty seeing a foreigner face off against two Chinese cheaters -- a national image issue -- or, conversely, thought that a probably well-off foreigner should have let the cheaters, as citizens of a historic victim nation, get their way.

This story has implications for Sino-foreign cooperation in work, business and law enforcement. If the foreign side is technically right in a dispute with someone in China and helps the Chinese partner, the foreign side may still be morally wrong.

There's much to disagree with in the analysis, and it's a bit of a leap to the conclusion. But is there anything to disagree with in the account of events? And the relevance is the extra difficulty when a Chinese talks to a foreigner about politics, making frank speech in some ways more likely (the foreigner isn't going to be a plain clothes policeman), but in some ways less likely, because national pride gets involved.

What this has to do with the topic under discussion I'm not sure, but limited experience of Shanghai is almost entirely irrelevant to discussing China as a whole.

The point being made here is very well taken, however. Presumably one would equally approve at home if one's child pointed at a Chinese and said "Chinese!"?

Would the laughing reply be, "Oh yes! Look! A Chinese!", or would it be "Shush, dear. We don't say that kind of thing. It makes other people uncomfortable"?

And of course the term used is more likely to be laowai (roughly equivalent in tone to calling a Chinese person a chink, depending on the speaker), and those who get out and about in Shanghai, while hearing this less often then anywhere else in China, will still hear it, although more likely from outsiders than locals.

Outside of the most major metropolises it's a constant refrain, of course.

Peter N-H

I thought it was more common to hear " Qin wode pigu, chou yang gui zi".

There are snippets from a very topical interview with the Chinese ambassador to the UN being broadcast currently as part of the news on the BBC World Service radio (listen on the hour) with the full interview to be broadcast a couple of times over the weekend.

Naturally the interview is political, and consequently the ambassador lies more or less every time he opens his mouth. I encourage everyone to have a listen (it will be obtainable in China via Real Audio and other formats, if you can find a proxy way through to the website and click the link).

Gems include:

"Europe has a history of war but China has a history of peace."

"China is a peace-loving nation." Fair enough. I dare say the U.S. fighting wars on several fronts, would say the same. But he goes on to defend China's military build-up, while denying that that build-up threatens anyone, yet he threatens Taiwan almost in the same breath.

And there's much more.

And he also tells America several times to "shut up".

It's an utterly bravura performance, and well worth hearing.

Peter N-H

Peter N-H: I was referring to the comments in the blog, many of which I find rather childish to be honest. I would think that the real issue here is multiculturalism, something that is yet to be accepted in most Asian societies.

Depends on what you do. My wife and I just about caused a bike accident once. We were walking along holding hands. It's just the weather was cold--our hands were in my jacket pocket.

One guy was doing far too much looking at us and far too little at looking at where he was going--and barely managed to avoid running into a telephone pole.

While I have often felt like an object of interest there it hasn't ever seemed hostile, just a matter of curiosity.

It's not at all unusual for my wife (native-born Chinese) to be asked how she likes being married to an American. And then when they hear she's happy it's very often followed up by asking how they could find an American.

My observations on talking politics over there:

This is a few years out of date as I no longer see much of the few relatives I'm actually able to communicate with at a level where a discussion of politics is at all possible.

They often asked me political questions and had no problem with discussing how things were in China. However, any mention of anything contrary to the official story would immediately terminate the political conversation.

Tried accessing to above sites and the results as below:
-wikipedia Being blocked
-bbc having access to
-google (sometimes, has gotten much worse recently) all searching tried by google, result listing there many pages
-any web search that includes terms such as tianmen, "june 4", falungong, "taiwan independence", etc "june 4" no way, "Taiwan independence" yes
-web sites that focus on taboo topics like those just mentioned Any other taboo topics?

Moondog, I appreciate your welcome, but can I think it's a racial prejudice as I was treated different than other FTers for the special concerning?

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18 August 2006







The World Uncovered: Cocaine Jungle
Over the last five years Washington has spent more than three billion dollars fighting the war against drugs in Colombia. In this week's programme, Paul Kenyon investigates the war on cocaine in Colombia.
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Fight for Life explores the issues surrounding conception, pregnancy, birth and early childhood around the world.
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(v2.0)
Section 1 of 3: Recommended Photos/Videos/Reading

* Reading Asia Blog Awards 2006 AsiaPundit

* Reading Protesters, Police and Diplomacy Jane Macartney, Sinofile
* Reading 美國華文媒體應勢而起 Xinhua, via Yahoo! News
* Reading Deconstructing HRW's report on China Imagethief
* Reading Four Photojournalists, One Angle Letters from China
* Reading 上海俚语的殖民地起源 朱大可, China Information Center
* Reading AOL to dig up spammer's garden in search of gold Oliver Burkeman, The Guardian

Section 2 of 3: Brief comments

* [Permalink] Dialetical Materialism of YouTube (08/17/2006) According to the dictionary definition, in dialectical materialism: "all historical growth, change, and development results from the struggle of opposites. (In philosophical terms, a thesis is opposed by its antithesis, which results in a synthesis.)" Whatever ...

On one hand, you can read about the state of YouTube in China: SARFT attacks Internet video and The General Administration of Anxiety about Radio, Film and TV about how YouTube could be banned inside China and there is a pushack along the line of the defense of freedom of expression.

On the other hand, you have a total jerk in Hong Kong who wants to supply the perfect justification to ban/censor YouTube. From The Sun (via HKGolden):

Several Dragan Air stewardesses have their upskirt videos posted on YouTube. More than 6,000 persons have viewed that video already. In that 1:09 video, the focus was on a stewardess in short skirt and black nylon stockings. Whenever she bent over to inquire about the needs of a passenger, the camera would sneak in from behind and underneath. Two more stewardesses were filmed in the same way when they were opening up the overhead compartment or pushing the food service cart. The same YouTube user has also posted other upskirt videos such as young girls going up escalors.

When Dragon Air learned about this video, they promised to seek legal advice. The YouTube user has removed all this videos.

* [Permalink] Taiwan By The Numbers (08/17/2006) (TVBS) Selected excerpts from the public opinion poll related to Shi Ming-teh's campaign to oust President Chen Shui-bian. The sample consists of 948 Taiwan persons age 20 or older interviewed on August 14-15 by telephone (drawn from telephone directory with last four digits of the telephone number being randomized).

Satisfaction with President Chen Shui-bian:
10% satisfied, 73% dissatisfied, 18% no opinion

Following the whole series of scandals around President Chen and his family (including the national security funds, SOGO gift vouchers, Taiwan Trading Corporation, etc), do you believe that President Chen should resign?
Should 62%; should not 21%; no opinion 16%. [editor's note: when you read off a list of negatives before you ask the question, then it is loaded question!]

Do you support Shi Ming-teh's "One Million Persons Oust-Bian" movement?
Total: 58%
and by political affiliation
People's First Party: 88%
Nationalist Party: 85%
Independent: 44%
Democratic Progressive Party: 11%
Taiwan Solidarity Union: 3%

* [Permalink] Speaking Out On Behalf of Ching Cheong (08/17/2006) (Ming Pao) By 李先知. August 17, 2006.

[in translation]

Singapore Strait Times top reporter Ching Cheong is being charged with espionage. But because the case involves certain national secrets, the entire investigation and trial process have been shrouded in mystery and outsiders have no way of knowing the details. People in political circles know that this case is highly sensitive, so that even though the case has reached the stage of "judicial verdict," the family of Ching Cheong, the usual human rights organizations and even the SAR government have been mute or low-keyed. But the signals from various political sectors indicate that the silent backdrop did not mean that no one is working on behalf of Ching Cheong. It only meant that these people are choosing "silence is golden."

In the case of the SAR government, knowledgeable persons said that apart from those public "statements and responses," all the involved senior officials are working under guiding principle to "say less and do more." The political gossip was that the SAR government has continuously worked various levels of the mainland government for over a year to show their concern. Informed sources say that the Legislature and the media have never ceased applying pressure on the SAR government. On each trip that Chief Executive Donald Tsang made to Beijing to report on work, someone has asked Tsang, "Did you ask the leaders about the Ching Cheong case?" These public pressures make it impossible for Tsang to evade.

The political gossip is that Donald Tsang mentioned the Ching Cheong case on every trip, and the Political Affairs Department and the Beijing Office have also done some work, including relay messages to Ching Cheong from his family. In the early stages, the Hong Kong Security Department had even suggested that Mary Lau (Mrs. Ching Cheong) can visit him in the company of Hong Kong SAR officials. In the end, Mary Lau remembered that her husband told her in their last phone conversation not to go to the mainland, and therefore she declined the proposal.

But government officials say that even though outsiders ask them about what is being done to aid Ching Cheong and how to respond to the case, they know that they cannot publicly disclose what they know or make criticisms. They know clearly that as soon as they make a detailed discussion of the Ching Cheong case, it becomes an assessment of the judicial system on the mainland and it is no longer "One country, two systems." Someday if the mainland starts making public comments about the verdicts in the Hong Kong courts, what will happen?

In addition, according to private communication from a friend of Ching Cheong, many prominent figures outside of government have also worked on the Ching Cheong case. This includes some of the National People's Congress representatives from the Hong Kong region. He said that the People's Congress representatives, the Ching Cheong concern group and the SAR government have reached out to their mainland contacts to state their hope that the mainland authorities will provide lenient treatment in consideration of the overall situation.

He analyzed that there are many people in Hong Kong who are concerned about the Ching Cheong case. If Ching should receive a heavy sentence, there will be repercussions here. "At the moment, Ching Cheong's family and friends are hoping for their best case to come true and he can come home soon. But they are also prepared for the worst case scenario."

Furthermore, even those people in the pro-Beijing camp who have "clamped up" early on have been reflecting to the authorities to ask for "lenient treatment." Even if Ching Cheong is really guilty, he should be released early for "medical reasons." One veteran leftist politician said, "After all, we knew each other."

Some organizations have set up "plans for post-verdict action." For example, the Alliance to Support Democratic Movements in China has decided that if Ching Cheong is found guilty or sent to jail, they will go into the streets to demonstrate and hope to use public opinion to save him. The Civil Human Rights Front said that they will support any action to save Ching Cheong, and the decision to organize large-scale marches will depend on the severity of the sentence.

The pan-democratic camp does not dare to make any high-keyed moves at this time. They all know that a high-profiled support of Ching Cheong by the democrats at this time will be the "kiss of death" in the eyes of the central government. Rather than being unhelpful that way, they can only wait for the Ching Cheong family to "issue the orders."

* [Permalink] Hong Kong International Airport Struck by Terrorists (08/17/2006) (Sing Pao) Yesterday at 845am a group of 30 students were traveling to Hangzhou. Inside the restricted zone with the Hong Kong International Airport right outside the three up-scale shops of Bally, Prada and Coach, the students spotted a stream of feces in the aisle. Because they are as big as fists, they were unlikely to have come from animals or babies. One pile had been squished because someone had stepped on it. Nobody apparently wanted to deal with the situation, so one of the students took out tissues to cover them. Finally, someone at Bally called for assistance.

The Airport Authority spokesperson said that there 81 cleaners on duty at the time and the area was cleaned within minutes after they received the first report at 850am. The spokesperson also said that the only animals allowed in the airport are police dogs and narcotics dogs, so it cannot be excluded that the piles had been left behind by official dogs. The Prada spokesperson said that it was inconvenient to respond to the inquiries. Everybody agreed that it was SHOCKING!

* [Administrative Note] (08/17/2006) Upon arrival in New York City, everybody wanted there wanted to know: "How bad were the security searches?" In truth, this was fairly unremarkable as the additional security arrangements apply only to flights leaving Hong Kong for the United States and the United Kingdom. So all the US-bound flights (Cathay Pacific, Continental, United) were sequestered into the far end of the terminal where passengers and their luggage have to searched by hand. There was no issue with ALL passengers being put through the same search process. I will be curious to see what happens on my return trip from New York City.

By comparison, this experience was no way as intimidating on my first trip to Bogota, Colombia in 1995. When I left, I went through the usual X-ray machine stuff and then I came to this long row of white-gloved security agents (about 50 of them) with tables in front of them. Every item in the luggage was sifted through by hand while the dog handlers lead their sniffing dogs up and down the aisle.

For previous brief comments, see Brief Comments Archive.

Section 3 of 3: Blog posts

(August 17, 2006) The Google Chainmail Letter A chainmail letter has been circulated in China about how the evil American ghouls (such as Google) has been suppressing information on the Nanjing massacre, the Diaoyutai islands, etc. The call to action was: Boycott Google and support Baidu!

(August 16, 2006) Media Coverage of Typhoon Saomai A comparison of coverage of typhoon Saomai in China by Xinhua, Southern Metropolis Daily and the online forums.

(August 16, 2006) Local Reporters In Lively Action In Kunming city, Yunnan province of China, some reporters covering a fire incident were assaulted by the police and security guards.

(August 16, 2006) Would Chen Shui-bian Blog? You would think that this is coming from the opposite side of the digital divide, but this is actually an interview with a professor of computer science and information engineering on the subject of blogging. His final shot: "Does anyone read that stuff?"

(August 15, 2006) Crazy Stone Is A Poisonous Weed A Tianya Club post denounced the movie Crazy Stone as a poisonous cultural weed, but one should not count on the return of the Cultural Revolution because the readers found the post to be a hilarious spoof. (Roland Soong @ ESWN Culture)

(August 14, 2006) Direct Marketing on Chinese Television Translation of an Chinese News Week article about the television direct marketing industry in China. Whatever else, the Chinese have certainly learned to do infomercials as well as the Americans, and this is not regarded as a good thing.

(August 14, 2006) The Yanshi Incident In the city of Yanshi, villagers attempting to protect their farmlands from requisitioning without adequate compensation were assaulted by hired gangsters with an unimaginable degree of brutality.

(August 14, 2006) Hong Kong Internet Stories Translation of three Apple Daily stories about what is hot on the Internet in Hong Kong nowadays.

(August 13, 2006) MOP Hunts Pornographers MOP forum netizens are trying to hunt down a criminal organization which took photographs of young Chinese female martial arts students in bikinis to sell to Japanese customers.

(August 12, 2006) The People's Daily Dose of Kinkiness (Continued) Polish blogger Sinodrom researches the matter about the People's Daily Online website being attacked by splogs.

(August 12, 2006) The Three Alls A Japanese corporation has applied for a trademark of The Three Alls to sell medical products in China. Chinese netizens are outraged because The Three Alls was the name of the Japanese scorched earth policy of 'burn all, kill all and loot all.' But is the term commonly used by the Chinese for other purposes as well?

(August 11, 2006) Shih Ming-teh's Letter To Chen Shui-bian Translation of the letter from former DPP chairman Shih Ming-teh to President Chen Shui-bian asking for the president to resign for the sake of the party and Taiwan.

(August 10, 2006) Skeptics As A Progressive Force In Society Translation of a Lian Yue blog post about the self-reinforcing nature of political partisanship and how skepticism can be used as the counterforce.

(August 10, 2006) Roots - Part 1 In reseaching for an upcoming project, I found out that my personal knowledge about my grandfather T.F. Soong was different from the Internet version in which the city of Qingdao figured prominently. (Roland Soong @ ESWN Culture)

(August 9, 2006) Lebanon What are the Chinese thinking about the Israel-Lebanon war? Here are partial translations from a Hong Kong blog post and an essay by Liu Xiaobo.

(August 8, 2006) The People's Daily Dose of Porn A reader directed me to this page at People's Daily Online. Freedom of speech has gone a lot further than previously supposed ... or was this another handiwork of the Chinese Hacker Alliance?

(August 7, 2006) The Great Xiangyin Massacre More than 100 petitioners for land compensation money have been massacred by armed policemen in Xiangyin (Hunan). Or maybe not ...

(August 6, 2006) Wu Hongda's Statement on the Sujiatun Concentration Camp Wu Hongda is the direction of the Chinese dissident website China Information Center, and this is his statement about the Sujiatian concentration camp. This is the sort of stuff that you willl never read in English.

(August 5, 2006) Why Teresa Teng Could Not Visit Mainland China Translation of a long Southern Weekend interview with Liu Zhongde, former Minister of Culture and deputy director of the Central Propaganda Department. This gives insight as to how cultural policies work in China. (Roland Soong @ ESWN Culture)

Many, many more previous blog posts in the Blog Post Archive ...

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Waiguoren = racial prejudice?? LOL. Waiguoren is a calling without any meaning, as zhongguoren, meiguoren, yingguoren... they just reprensent the people from where, waiguoren just means that the person is from outside of China. No need to over react.

I agree with this as I read from news that many illegal porn websites have been crashed down.

Not exactly, I posted what I copied from some "taboo" sites.

Either long-term expat or residential Chinese, hard to make a comprehensive conclusion on China. Why? China is a large size country with 11 billion population and diverse social classes, each place is varied from other place on the issues as dialet, living condition, cultural custom..... What ever how developed in some major cities, whole China is still a developing country, poverty is not a major social problem, but no denied there are many people living under standard condition, I think we all realize that good virtues would most possibly be found on those from better living environment, also there are many those in China.

Regarding the green part, I would rather think the the waitress doen't undertand English, so there would be some misunderstanding between them. When I read the post, I thought what the author meant to get some green flower or something to decorate the place.

I agree with this point. It's not losing face when the people with good will pointed out something needed to improve.

I'm confused by the anecdote also. To prove what? When the 2 seat-occupants were rousted by the train conductor, obviously the conductor didn't support their lie for occupying the seats. You won. But I don't think it's a big favor to the wine agent Ding, if it's me I would not think it's a favor also. You paid more to get the seat, that woman and man haing no so they were rousted, in my mind, I have sympathy on them, plus if I were Ding if I were a gentleman I would let the lady sit the sest, it's a shame to wait the other Chinese rousted for emptying the seat for me also a Chinese, if Ding thought like this, he would be embarrassed for without appreciating for your effort on your benefit, but for his losing face of fellow Chinese being rousted away from the paid seat.

I'd like to hear Anacapamalibu's reply on this, if he heard the little kid's parents responded laughing out loudly.

It's not wise to mention any politician's lying, as we know a lot of lies from the famous prime minister or president. Such on the issue of Iraq war, the sexual scandal... As I'm really not interested in politics, but I do know either the prime minister and president lie a lot to the public.

With due respect, I don't think racism applies in your case. Some of your views were treated with skepticism because they didn't ring true with the experiences of others. In other words, anyone (regardless of skin color or ethnic background) who goes on the record proclaiming that the Jinjiang is a world class hotel is going to get railed.

But, like I said before, keep them coming.

Slightly off topic, please refrain from copying large chunks of text from other sites (even if your motivation was so noble as to provide me with precious BBC content). In addition to constituting a violation of FT TOS, it makes the thread more difficult for others to enjoy.

Anyway, have a nice weekend and keep it real.

cultural revolution
great leep forward
gang of 4
...

If you try any of these on Yahoo, subsequent searches for innocuous terms like "boston," will get turned down as well for 5-10 minutes. This is because yahoo is trying to kowtow to the Chinese government. Google's stand has always been more principled, but they too are starting to give ground because if they don't, their prospects here are nil. Incidentally, I am once again locked out of gmail, which is incredibly annoying. IME censorship in Beijing is stronger than in other cities because the MII is here and they like to try out their new tricks locally before showing them to you guys in the south. I believe (or maybe, "hope" is a better word) they are using Google as a means to test their next generation of goodies.

That's what I want to hear and also my reply for any analogical question by other FTers.

I never rejected any skepticism question on my point, I never tried to stop any other opponent opinion against me or China, such as BJ tea scam, as I never experienced and never heard, but I can't say it's not true as it's possible happening to foreign tourists, but same the Chinese travellers would encounter analogical stories overseas. As JIngjiang entitled 5-star is truth, although you maybe some other FTers have bad comments on it, it's still high level hotel in Shanghai. it's truth, I didn't forward my personal opinion on it.

Thanks for your encouraging, but without it I should be still keeping forwarding my points both same or opponent.

Your suggetion is accepted, I do not want to hear more complaints since the large chunks of text useless.

You too. All have a good weekend.

As I never tried to seach with yahoo, google is the onnly choice for me. Never tried "cultural revolution" or "gang of 4" etc before, as it's a chaos history which I think I knew enough how human nature were ruined and that distorted political struggling social enviornment that we can find in many books, novels, tv plays and movies, also heard from neighbors who experienced that times. It's a fearfully dark time to me also. As I'm not interested in politics so never spend time on taboo sites by the government, but I still think in any country not only in China, any issue banned by the government, the common people would better leave them away.

Plus I have to make clear that I'm not a guy, but a female.