Any recommendations on alternative Chinese history orginally written in German, French, Japanese or Korean? I'd prefer those over the mainstream Anglo-Saxon dissent. ;)

Seems this topic has been brought up before
I don't agree with this.. but here it is.

Chinese Sketches
by Herbert A. Giles
first published: 1876


LYING

We have stated our conviction that the Chinese as a nation are not more addicted to thieving than the inhabitants of many countries for whom the same excuses are by no means so available. That no undiscerning persons may be led to regard us as panegyrists of a stationary civilisation, we hasten to counterbalance our somewhat laudatory statements by the enunciation of another proposition less startling, but if anything more literally true. The Chinese are a nation of liars. If innate ideas were possible, the idea of lying would form the foundation of the Chinese mind. They lie by instinct; at any rate, they lie from imitation, and improve their powers in this respect by the most assiduous practice. They seem to prefer lying to speaking the truth, even when there is no stake at issue; and as for shame at being found out, the very feeling is unfamiliar to them. The gravest and most serious works in Chinese literature abound in lies; their histories lie; and their scientific works lie. Nothing in China seems to have escaped this taint.

False liar and honest liar
 

Here's an experiment for you: ask 10 people at Shanghai Station how to get to Xintiandi.

Here is experiment for you: ask 50 strip dancers at strip club do they like your for your good looking with money at your hand.

For the first part of your quote I'd say thats a bit different. Obviously people are at the club for the fantasy of it all and they pay the strippers for this fantasy. The experiement moondog proposed didn't involve any money or fantasy, just a courtesy. One would think that rather than lead someone in the wrong direction the person asked for directions would say, "I don't know"....instead in China they will lie to you and tell you they know and give you directions and then you will be lost. I understand its your culture and its historic and it has 5000 years of glorious history and nobody in the west can understand how Chinese think, ect, ect. All of that being said...its still a lie.

The second part of the the quote about purposefully lying to take advantage or make profit...isn't that the new motto for the Chinese Communist Party? How else are they gonna get those new Audis to drive around in?

My original point was only that what is said to you cannot always be taken at face value, and that in particular pronouncements on politics made in public are almost always unlikely to reflect the speaker's real views, unless both he and his views are totally at one with those of the Party.

But ugly as the Giles passage is to read by modern standards of correctness, it should be noted that it comes from a man who lived and worked in China for many years, and who went on to be professor of Chinese at Cambridge. He's also the Giles of Wade-Giles, by the way, the system of Romanizing Chinese that survived largely unchallenged by other systems (however impractical it was) until the middle of the 20th century. But it also comes from a man writing a century ago, and with different values from those of today.

He himself goes on to criticise some other attacks on the Chinese for lying, such as lying to free oneself from duress, or lying in an obvious way to get a point across, which we would excuse ourselves. Clearly we'd also excuse lying out of politeness or to avoid giving others unnecessary distress, for instance: "Yes, your little boy is a very sweet child." "Try to lie still, the doctor will be here in just a minute." It's also hard to criticise someone who might lie to keep his or her head when put on the spot in front of a television camera, as in my Tank Man example. We can't all be Sir Thomas More, and the border between black and white is not so clearly defined as we might think.

But it's best to assume that all statements made in commercial negotiation and which if you believe them will benefit the other party are false until proven to be true. Certainly the Chinese assume they are going to be cheated at every turn, and to some degree the mistake is ours in taking commercial statements at face value. That's just not how it works, and it's necessary to adapt. In the earlier example, saying "I'm just at the elevator," is presumably aimed at preventing the cancelling of the order. It's a useful commercial lie. It's also worth mentioning the our own businesses are largely kept in line by legislation, without which things would be even worse than they are.

Putting people in a situation where they will look bad if they can't give an answer to a question will often lead to a convenient but inaccurate reply. Saying or doing something that causes the other person to lose face will often lead to a torrent of untruth in support of the other person's position. In either case it's simply best not to put people on the spot in the first place.

Some of what Giles writes is anyway rather nutty. But he ends up the book in this way:

"Surely it is manifest enough that by selecting the evidence, any society may be relatively blackened, and any other society relatively whitened."

We hope that no such principle of selection can be traced in the preceding pages. Irritation against traducers of China and her morality may have occasionally tinged our views with a somewhat rosy hue; but we have all along felt the danger of this bias, and have endeavoured to guard against it. We have no wish to exalt China at the expense of European civilisation, but we cannot blind ourselves to the fact that her vices have been exaggerated, and her virtues overlooked.

Only the bigoted or ignorant could condemn with sweeping assertions of immorality a nation of many millions absolutely free, as the Chinese are, from one such vice as drunkenness [An astonishing and rather silly claim even then and certainly unsupportable now. And it rather lacks logic, too.]; in whose cities may be seen--what all our legislative and executive skill cannot secure--streets quiet and deserted after nine or ten o'clock at night [This appears to be the equivalent of the old WW2 phrase,"Say what you like about the Fascists, but they make the trains run on time." What price are you willing to pay for quiet evening streets?] Add to this industry, frugality, patriotism, and a boundless respect for the majesty of office [this last entirely squandered by the Party, if it ever existed without the fear of imminent death to support it]: it then only remains for us to acknowledge that China is after all "a nation of much talent, and, in some respects, even wisdom."

Those last few words set the teeth on edge, and it's difficult to imagine anyone writing in quite that tone these days, except in blogs, of course. This one has many examples to match those given in others' posts:

http://lalaoshi.livejournal.com/62185.html

If in China you may need to use a proxy for this one. (Do you?)

Peter N-H

This is your opinion? A lie for money is not a lie? The Shanghai Station is a good location to be selected, because there gathering many thievies and hobos there, including floating population from outside places, most are uneducated and poor, they don't know where is where at all, they can't represent the most population of China. I would think if you pay you would get right answer. A truth for money is not a lie. But in my opinion, if you go to anywhere in downtown, most response would be exact, Shanghai ren are very nice to foreigners.

Go to ask some of your fellows if they are close to some locals for fevor or good profit. A motto for CCP? Where did you get this clue? I just show the fact.

Peter N-H, can you explain how to get a proxy in China? I can never figure out how to do it and I'm tired of not being able to read what I want!!

Perhaps shmj will now tell me why I shouldn't be allowed to read things in China. I'm dying to hear it.

Below is copied from the page http://lalaoshi.livejournal.com/62185.html

I'm living here in downtown of Shanghai, I'm not a expert on pc, I just need to use my adsl connecting with internet to view any website I know and am intersted both in and outside of China.

If you are staying in a hotel offering broad band internet in China, it's same as what I can.

Laowiseass - That's not a pig -- you're looking in the mirror

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Jun. 20th, 2006 | 11:46 am


"There ARE veggies at the bottom of your fish head soup," the waitress told a friend and me at a decent restaurant in downtown Hefei, Anhui province, one Saturday in May. My friend had asked if the house could add something green to our otherwise grayish white cauldron.
We dug around the pot and found nothing green but a few leek skins.
So the waitress came back with a plate of green leafy vegetables, which we took for an extra six yuan. Why the waitress's first comment, a clear lie, then?
I defer to my friend YD, a 29-year-old former student who understands his society better than the average member of it. He says China has no moral code, meaning there's no redemption for apologizing or shame in lying, turning transactions between strangers into martial arts exchanges to see how much each party can wrangle out of the other without losing face or doing extra work. The waitress lied or guessed about the veggies to see if we'd believe her and leave her alone.
I suspect that fear of looking weak, an extension of the save-face complex, also stops transactions from ending in apologies or truths that no one wants to hear.
So it's acceptable and habit-forming to bluff, lie or parry whatever blows are expected. Oral combat is more acceptable than an honest analysis of what's wrong and what might be done to make it right. In a dispute between equals, whoever makes the most convincing statement wins the bout, regardless of who screwed up or what kinds of remedies are available.
I once asked a massage parlor receptionist in Shanghai whether my white skin was a reason that she wouldn't let me speak a word of Chinese. No, she said, it's because I didn't think you'd understand. And why was that? Well, you look like a foreigner. And how did you figure that out? I assure you nothing was racially motivated. I felt assured.
When an Ikea furniture deliveryman in Beijing didn't want to figure out how to transport a mildew-smelling new mattress back to the store, he told me to wait a few days and the smell would disappear. I said we had already waited about a week. He found a way to haul it off.
When China Southern canceled a Beijing flight to Guangzhou, causing my wife and me to miss a connection to Bangkok, we discovered that two seats were open on a Thai Airways flight the same day and that we could make that flight on time. China Southern managers at the Beijing and Guangzhou airports made the following incorrect statements to keep us off that flight, which probably charged China Southern extra for our asses when we finally boarded it after two hours of arguing:
1. I'm not the person in charge of that. No one here is.
2. I've processed your request and it'll be in order when you get to Guangzhou.
3. There are no seats on the Thai Airways flight.
4. It's just as easy for you to stay the night in Guangzhou and use our airline tomorrow.
5. This case is closed. Get away from my counter.
This martial arts trend anchors the service industry, from flat-tire fixers to real estate. It also runs government public relations. What about foreign complaints of trademark violations in China? Every country has a trademark violation issue. What about the anti-Japan vandalism (April 2005) in China as cops stood by watching? That was Japan's fault. The U.N. rapporteur says torture is widespread in China, so? He wasn't here long enough to know what he's talking about.
My favorite is the MAIN ISSUE repartee. Why can't China and Japan hold high-level meetings to discuss a list of political problems? Because the "main issue," whether Japanese prime minister's Yasukuni Shrine visits hurt China's post-WWII feelings, hasn't been settled. Why won't China meet with Chen Shui-bian in Taiwan? Because Chen doesn't accept the "main issue," which is accepting Beijing's one-China principle, meaning no independent Taiwan.
If you have any further questions, the meeting is over.
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Comments {16}
(no subject)
from: chinawolf
date: Jun. 20th, 2006 07:35 pm (UTC)
Link

This post encapsulates the one thing I really hate about China. I think this particular kind of 'saving face' - when to me personally they lose all face by acting like that - is one of those cultural differences I will not ever be able to cross because I just don't get it.
Reply

circle of blame
from: i_rage_robbins
date: Jun. 21st, 2006 01:52 am (UTC)
Link

I will be marking this post and reading it frequently. The rampant lying (epidemic!!) in China is THE main reason for my habitual mood swings and terminate-stay-ready Culture Shock. It's the reason why I schedule and save up for yearly international excursions to America and Japan. I've been here for going on three years, and my lie detector has improved, but not to the point where I can assimilate myself into a functioning sub-particle of the system without feeling intense guilt and a general sense of failure. Sometimes I Ameri-centrically blame it on the lack of a religious foundation in this society (she confessed, blushing), but then I feel embarrassed for thinking that and shift the blame onto the government. Like I do in America.
Reply

(no subject)
from: csn
date: Jun. 21st, 2006 08:23 am (UTC)
Link

You sum it up so well, these sentiments of overwhelming frustration, ignorance, and suffering on the most massively destructive scale within a country on the planet. It leaves me speechless. You really need to write a book.
Reply

Martial Art Face Saving
from: anonymous
date: Jun. 21st, 2006 08:28 am (UTC)
Link

Nobody says it better than Lalaoshi! Definitely the best satire of China issues around. Feng37
Reply

Figures
from: phil_sen
date: Jun. 23rd, 2006 09:21 pm (UTC)
Link

Or consider this story from a pretty damn expensive tour group trip to Tibet.

Arrived at Chengdu airport and found the company representative whose job it was to ensure we got on the connecting flight to Lhasa. After asking her several times what we were supposed to do, we eventually asked the airport staff who told us that the flight had been cancelled due to dust storms.

Eventually we figured out that the airline owed us a hotel and a meal and we made it to Lhasa the next day. No dust storms there for months, the local guide told us.

Not only could they not just say 'the flight was cancelled' but the person whose JOB it was to tell us this and make arrangements did and said nothing...

http://www.philip-sen.com/othermeans
Reply

it's not even satire ...
from: anonymous
date: Jun. 25th, 2006 02:18 pm (UTC)
Link

... it's the truth.

The lying is ridiculously out of control. I just called my boss out about lying in an e-mail recently since I received my last paycheck this past week. I've lost track of the number of lies when he phoned me this evening. He even tried to say that one of the other teachers here was lying and then admitted that he wasn't 5 minutes later. I'd love to go into the whole conversation if the story wasn't so long.

In zhongguancun a week ago I went to buy a hard drive case. I asked for a SATA one many many times. I even wrote it down. There was no room for confusion. I bought one and when I got home I discovered it was IDE. I went back irritated. They tried to find a replacement, but couldn't. They couldn't even understand why i was angry. Eventually I just asked for my money back.

We walked around and found another dealer and i asked for a SATA case. They brought me one and this time I decided to open it and make sure before I bought it. I should have done this with the first seller. Anyways, I open it and find that the SATA connector is broken. I point it out and they say it isn't. I say it is and that i want a new one. The guy walks back to his stall and tries to fix it and i see him do this. He brings it back and says it's ok and it obviously isn't. I say again that i want a new one and he then proceeds to pick up the manual, flips to the last page and then points to the warranty.

He was trying to sell me a broken case and then when he couldn't lie to me about it, he points to the warranty as if i should buy it and send it to get fixed. At that point i walk off, I should have done so sooner.

the zhonguancun macdonald's stories are coming next...
Reply

Cancelled Dishes
from: anonymous
date: Jun. 26th, 2006 04:21 am (UTC)
Link

I was dining with a friend and his local girlfriend who was extremely rude to all waiting staff in the restaurant where we were eating. One dish was taking ages to arrive and eventually the girlfriend said we didn't want it anymore and we'd like to cancel it. The staff said it's already being cooked so we couldn't cancel it. My friend's girlfriend, much to my astonishment got out of her seat and pushed her way into the kitchen. She came back to our table two minutes later announcing that they had NOT started cooking so we wouldn't be paying for that dish. I was stunned but started to admire that kind of behaviour which seems somehow justified by the environment.
Reply

Great stories
from: lalaoshi
date: Jun. 27th, 2006 12:28 am (UTC)
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The dramatic anecdotes in the comments here are all too credible. They should be compiled into a China survival guide.
Reply | Thread

Re: Great stories
from: anonymous
date: Jul. 1st, 2006 10:28 am (UTC)
Link

I think we should all do something about this lying and cheating !!! I'll be damned if I'm going to sit around and patiently accept and understand their weaknesses like a man !! More people should write in about their problems in this damn country !!! This is the only way to deal with it !!!
Reply | Parent

teacher of the year awards
from: anonymous
date: Jun. 27th, 2006 02:13 am (UTC)
Link

here's a great one from the past 24 hours.....

our boss Kevin Zhang at Beihang University lied to 3 people about being recipients of the 4 teacher of the year awards to get them to come to the meeting. One of them canceled a class where they would have made 300RMB teaching. In the end none of those three won. In addition the teacher of the year award carries with it a 1000-5000RMB cash prize depending on which place you get.

talk about a bait and switch
Reply

Social Capital
from: phil_sen
date: Jun. 28th, 2006 08:11 pm (UTC)
Link

It all comes down to the concept of social capital - the idea that in a developed society there are expectations and social norms that make things work better. For example, if you buy something, you don't expect it to be broken - the financial transaction in the act of buying entails an unwritten social transaction - ie. an expectation that you're going to receive the thing you paid for.

In China this idea has developed altogether differently to the Western conception - instead there's guanxi.

I expect that those of you on the mainland won't be able to see this Wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_capital

So I'll cut and paste a few relevant snippets:

"Social capital "refers to the collective value of all 'social networks' and the inclinations that arise from these networks to do things for each other," according to Robert Putnam, author of Bowling Alone and the concept's leading exponent (though not its originator). According to Putnam and his followers, social capital is a key component to building and maintaining democracy...

Nan Lin's concept of social capital has a more individualistic approach: "Investment in social relations with expected returns in the marketplace". This may subsume the concepts of some others such as Bourdieu, Coleman, Flap, Putnam and Eriksson as noted in Lin's book Social Capital (2001; Cambridge University Press).

Francis Fukuyama described social capital as the existence of a certain (i.e. specific) set of informal values or norms shared among members of a group that permit cooperation among them..."

Catch my drift?


Reply | Thread

Re: Social Capital
from: lalaoshi
date: Jun. 29th, 2006 02:05 am (UTC)
Link

How about the role of communist diplomacy and public relations? I'd think that denial, cover-ups and blame of irrelevant external factors go beyond the social capital argument.
Reply | Parent | Thread

Re: Social Capital
from: bernsohn
date: Aug. 1st, 2006 10:36 pm (UTC)
Link

This is very true, but the question is why do people in China lie as a national sport?
Other groups have had traumatic histories and have had years of oppression but have reacted far differently. I'm stumped.
Reply | Parent | Thread

Re: Social Capital
from: lalaoshi
date: Aug. 2nd, 2006 01:07 pm (UTC)
Link

A good answer to why the national sport would probably hit every highlight of China's history and national psychology. Poverty, distrust of fellow people, lack of any security from the government, a get-ahead-quick mentality and no sustained religious faith (a form of social capital) could all be reasons. The CPC is now a public role model for bull.... artistry, too.
Reply | Parent

Excellent Article, among others
from: anonymous
date: Aug. 1st, 2006 04:03 pm (UTC)
Link

Ralph, you've really hit your stride.
After returning to this site after a small hiatus, I find that your satirical skills have been honed into a fine art. Well done.

On a more direct note.., it's been said that based on recent brutal regimes and environments some Chineseor other people across asia have learnt that lying and and evading situations can not only save face but save lives..., some habits become ingrained and hard to break; this may contribute to endemic lying.

-KF
Reply | Thread

Re: Excellent Article, among others
from: lalaoshi
date: Aug. 2nd, 2006 01:03 pm (UTC)
Link

thanks for the vote of confidence. but whose life has been saved by lying?
Reply | Parent

Leave a comment

IMO there's no point even trying to bypass the Great Firewall unless you have a home run plan because the government is pretty good at killing proxies.

The home run solution might entail contacting an overseas friend who: 1) knows computers; and 2) has really fast internet access. In addition to serving as a proxy, the system you design needs to be able to scramble/descramble because search terms like "tiananmen" often get rejected before they make it out of China.

Personally, I don't think Wikipedia and BBC warrant all that hassel, but I realize opinions vary. That said, recent problems with Gmail have been very annoying.

Edited to add: I had no problem accessing the referenced web site.

travelinmanS can you list somes websites that you have no access to? I'd like to try.

Checked out the lying stories in the referred page, no surprised, one would possibly encounter such scams, lies, stealings in public places in any country. I'd admit those stories prove no service in China.

People living abroad tend to comment like that for a while before getting more used to different cultural norms and the like. On the other hand, healthy criticism is about the only way we can improve any society and living conditions. It's not China specific at all as such.

I think part of these (pick your country) bashing boards has to do with the global demand for English teachers. Take a young college graduate ( or in many cases not even that ) from an English speaking country, add a totally alien culture to them and tough business practices, spice up with some mutual prejudgements and homesickness and what you get is a bulletin board like that.

off the top of my head:

-wikipedia
-bbc
-google (sometimes, has gotten much worse recently)
-any web search that includes terms such as tianmen, "june 4", falungong, "taiwan independence", etc
-web sites that focus on taboo topics like those just mentioned

btw, although i don't agree with many of your posts, i enjoy your presence in this forum (you make the discussions much more interesting)

Very interesting discussion. The more I read the more I realize how little I saw/ learned/ experienced. I'm already planning a return trip.