New procedures for PVG?
Dec 26, 2021, 1:33 pm
#1
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New procedures for PVG?
On December 22nd, DL 287 SEA-ICN-PVG turned around after crossing the Pacific, returned to SEA, and cancelled the flight. DL 288 PVG-ICN-SEA was also cancelled on December 25th. There's a thread on this in the DL forum.
Passengers were apparently told that China made some changes to requirements for PVG while the flight was in the air. The announcement vaguely suggested that passengers would be unable to enter China. A later announcement claimed that the aircraft would have been required to spend more time on the ground at PVG, thus making the flight and its schedule infeasible.
Has anyone in China heard about this? What specific changes were made to the rules?
SPECULATION:
My guess is that perhaps all crew are now required to be tested in China even though they don't leave the aircraft in PVG. (Apparently the flight stops in ICN to get fresh crew and to refuel, with no passengers permitted to get on or off there.) If a crew member would test positive, my guess would be that the quarantine and testing requirements for all passengers would be much harsher. Perhaps the crew member(s) would be required to stay in China for a couple weeks or until testing negative.
Alternatively, perhaps China is no longer permitting foreign carriers to operate this type of flight versus being forced to fly nonstop from their country of origin. If the change is the latter, it might impact HKG too, where some airlines now are stopping elsewhere in Asia and then flying short legs to/from HKG to avoid the possibility of crew being sent to quarantine centers there.
I guess there could be a requirement to fumigate the aircraft before boarding starts in PVG; this would also lead to additional time on the ground at PVG.
Passengers were apparently told that China made some changes to requirements for PVG while the flight was in the air. The announcement vaguely suggested that passengers would be unable to enter China. A later announcement claimed that the aircraft would have been required to spend more time on the ground at PVG, thus making the flight and its schedule infeasible.
Has anyone in China heard about this? What specific changes were made to the rules?
SPECULATION:
My guess is that perhaps all crew are now required to be tested in China even though they don't leave the aircraft in PVG. (Apparently the flight stops in ICN to get fresh crew and to refuel, with no passengers permitted to get on or off there.) If a crew member would test positive, my guess would be that the quarantine and testing requirements for all passengers would be much harsher. Perhaps the crew member(s) would be required to stay in China for a couple weeks or until testing negative.
Alternatively, perhaps China is no longer permitting foreign carriers to operate this type of flight versus being forced to fly nonstop from their country of origin. If the change is the latter, it might impact HKG too, where some airlines now are stopping elsewhere in Asia and then flying short legs to/from HKG to avoid the possibility of crew being sent to quarantine centers there.
I guess there could be a requirement to fumigate the aircraft before boarding starts in PVG; this would also lead to additional time on the ground at PVG.
Dec 26, 2021, 2:13 pm
#2
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On December 22nd, DL 287 SEA-ICN-PVG turned around after crossing the Pacific, returned to SEA, and cancelled the flight. DL 288 PVG-ICN-SEA was also cancelled on December 25th. There's a thread on this in the DL forum.
Passengers were apparently told that China made some changes to requirements for PVG while the flight was in the air. The announcement vaguely suggested that passengers would be unable to enter China. A later announcement claimed that the aircraft would have been required to spend more time on the ground at PVG, thus making the flight and its schedule infeasible.
Has anyone in China heard about this? What specific changes were made to the rules?
SPECULATION:
My guess is that perhaps all crew are now required to be tested in China even though they don't leave the aircraft in PVG. (Apparently the flight stops in ICN to get fresh crew and to refuel, with no passengers permitted to get on or off there.) If a crew member would test positive, my guess would be that the quarantine and testing requirements for all passengers would be much harsher. Perhaps the crew member(s) would be required to stay in China for a couple weeks or until testing negative.
Alternatively, perhaps China is no longer permitting foreign carriers to operate this type of flight versus being forced to fly nonstop from their country of origin. If the change is the latter, it might impact HKG too, where some airlines now are stopping elsewhere in Asia and then flying short legs to/from HKG to avoid the possibility of crew being sent to quarantine centers there.
I guess there could be a requirement to fumigate the aircraft before boarding starts in PVG; this would also lead to additional time on the ground at PVG.
Passengers were apparently told that China made some changes to requirements for PVG while the flight was in the air. The announcement vaguely suggested that passengers would be unable to enter China. A later announcement claimed that the aircraft would have been required to spend more time on the ground at PVG, thus making the flight and its schedule infeasible.
Has anyone in China heard about this? What specific changes were made to the rules?
SPECULATION:
My guess is that perhaps all crew are now required to be tested in China even though they don't leave the aircraft in PVG. (Apparently the flight stops in ICN to get fresh crew and to refuel, with no passengers permitted to get on or off there.) If a crew member would test positive, my guess would be that the quarantine and testing requirements for all passengers would be much harsher. Perhaps the crew member(s) would be required to stay in China for a couple weeks or until testing negative.
Alternatively, perhaps China is no longer permitting foreign carriers to operate this type of flight versus being forced to fly nonstop from their country of origin. If the change is the latter, it might impact HKG too, where some airlines now are stopping elsewhere in Asia and then flying short legs to/from HKG to avoid the possibility of crew being sent to quarantine centers there.
I guess there could be a requirement to fumigate the aircraft before boarding starts in PVG; this would also lead to additional time on the ground at PVG.
https://weibo.com/ttarticle/x/m/show...?_wb_client_=1
Dec 26, 2021, 3:41 pm
#3
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I'm guessing "no" to your guesses.
https://weibo.com/ttarticle/x/m/show...?_wb_client_=1
https://weibo.com/ttarticle/x/m/show...?_wb_client_=1
For anyone NOT wanting to read a novel: the initial DL287 was delayed a few times, then ultimately canceled due to crew time-out.
Replacement flight DL9891 took off the next day, had some issues with Russian airspace, and then returned because everyone's GREEN CODE had been rejected by the Chinese govt.
Don't know why though, and lost interest in reading this overly verbose drivel from a disgruntled passenger...
Added: UA857 is still flying (and flew over Christmas, and has a plane in the air SFO-ICN right now) with a route of SFO-ICN-PVG, so I don't think it's related to crew/Seoul/disembarking, etc.
Last edited by narvik; Dec 26, 2021 at 3:48 pm
Dec 26, 2021, 3:46 pm
#4
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For anyone NOT wanting to read a novel: the initial DL287 was delayed a few times, then ultimately canceled due to crew time out.
Replacement flight DL9891 took off the next day, had some issues with Russian airspace, and then returned because everyone's GREEN CODE had been rejected by the Chinese govt.
Don't know why though, and lost interest in reading this overly verbose drivel...
Replacement flight DL9891 took off the next day, had some issues with Russian airspace, and then returned because everyone's GREEN CODE had been rejected by the Chinese govt.
Don't know why though, and lost interest in reading this overly verbose drivel...
I suggest we focus this discussion in the Delta forum thread:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delt...-happened.html
Dec 26, 2021, 3:50 pm
#5
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I suggest we focus this discussion in the Delta forum thread:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delt...-happened.html
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delt...-happened.html
Dec 26, 2021, 4:13 pm
#6
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Quick summary (as I understand it) for anyone worried:
- DELTA had 'issues' with its SEA-ICN-PVG flights recently, and subsequently canceled the upcoming ones. DELTA supposedly stated that China changed some 'procedure'.
- UNITED is still flying a very similar route SFO-ICN-PVG apparently without issues.
A South China Morning Post news article:
"A Delta Air Lines spokeswoman said on Sunday that flight 287 from Seattle to Shanghai returned to Seattle after “new procedures required at Shanghai Pudong International Airport were implemented while it was en route” to Shanghai."
but also:
"An employee at Shanghai Pudong International Airport said the requirements for international flights remained unchanged in the past few days, and the cancellation of the Delta flight was not related to the airport."
- DELTA had 'issues' with its SEA-ICN-PVG flights recently, and subsequently canceled the upcoming ones. DELTA supposedly stated that China changed some 'procedure'.
- UNITED is still flying a very similar route SFO-ICN-PVG apparently without issues.
A South China Morning Post news article:
"A Delta Air Lines spokeswoman said on Sunday that flight 287 from Seattle to Shanghai returned to Seattle after “new procedures required at Shanghai Pudong International Airport were implemented while it was en route” to Shanghai."
but also:
"An employee at Shanghai Pudong International Airport said the requirements for international flights remained unchanged in the past few days, and the cancellation of the Delta flight was not related to the airport."
Dec 26, 2021, 4:33 pm
#7
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"A Delta Air Lines spokeswoman said on Sunday that flight 287 from Seattle to Shanghai returned to Seattle after “new procedures required at Shanghai Pudong International Airport were implemented while it was en route” to Shanghai."
but also:
"An employee at Shanghai Pudong International Airport said the requirements for international flights remained unchanged in the past few days, and the cancellation of the Delta flight was not related to the airport."
It's also impacting Taiwanese airlines that flies from airports with nighttime noise restrictions. Given the upcoming Olympics and the recent outbreaks, it's another creative method to reduce international arrivals. What's the point of sanitizing the plane AFTER it landed in China and all the passengers are off the plane.
This will impact airlines like UA/AA/AC/KL/AF that use ICN as a stopover vs Chinese airlines and foreign airlines like LH/LX/OS/AY that fly into/out of PVG nonstop with long layovers.
Last edited by m.y; Dec 26, 2021 at 5:13 pm
Dec 26, 2021, 5:35 pm
#8
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Dec 26, 2021, 6:07 pm
#9
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If that's true, it would be easy for the airlines to tack on an extra 2 hours of PVG time without putting the crews at risk of going OT (ICN-PVG-ICN is really short). That having been said, the AA flight arrives at DFW quite late at night, as it is...might want to tweak the inbound in this case.
Dec 27, 2021, 7:12 am
#10
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Seems like additional fumigation in PVG that makes turnaround arrangements not work.
What I don't get is - why do this in at destination, not origin?
What I don't get is - why do this in at destination, not origin?
Dec 27, 2021, 7:37 am
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This NowTV piece just got uploaded 22:10
上海浦東機場機艙消毒新措施 有航空公司暫停往浦東航班
http://news.now.com/home/internation...15&refer=Share
"上海浦東機場實施機艙消毒新措施，長榮航空華東首席代表林書弘向台灣的中央社表示，根據浦東機場平安夜發布 的新規定，只要入境班機有載客，就必須由消毒人員上機逐一消毒清潔每個座位，估計大型飛機300多個座位， 可能耗時4至5個小時，考慮到物流和消毒人員有限，實際所需時間可能更長。"
(PVG is implementing new fumigation procedures. BR East China chief representative Lin stated to Taiwan Central News Agency, owing to new requirements announced by PVG on Christmas Eve, for all inbound passenger services, each seat must be fumigated individually. For a 300-seat aircraft, this is estimated to take up to 4-5 hours at least. The actual time taken should be longer, due to logistic constraints and lack of manpower at PVG)
And this was from the NowTV piece at 6pm HKT https://news.now.com/home/internatio...05&refer=Share :
"華航表示取消即日起至明年一月底，由台灣桃園至浦東機場的載客航班，並減少由松山和高雄出發的班次，而考慮 到有旅客要返台過年，浦東回程返台的班機不受影響。"
(CI stated they will cancel TPE-PVG services from today to end of Jan, and reduce TSA-PVG and KHH-PVG frequencies. Owing to considerations of passengers returning to TW before CNY, PVG-Taiwan services will not be affected")
This suggests the restrictions will not apply to planes who fly empty to PVG, akin to how closed loop does not apply to overseas-HKG flights who only bring passengers from HKG but fly back to HKG empty https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cath...l#post33787994
上海浦東機場機艙消毒新措施 有航空公司暫停往浦東航班
http://news.now.com/home/internation...15&refer=Share
"上海浦東機場實施機艙消毒新措施，長榮航空華東首席代表林書弘向台灣的中央社表示，根據浦東機場平安夜發布 的新規定，只要入境班機有載客，就必須由消毒人員上機逐一消毒清潔每個座位，估計大型飛機300多個座位， 可能耗時4至5個小時，考慮到物流和消毒人員有限，實際所需時間可能更長。"
(PVG is implementing new fumigation procedures. BR East China chief representative Lin stated to Taiwan Central News Agency, owing to new requirements announced by PVG on Christmas Eve, for all inbound passenger services, each seat must be fumigated individually. For a 300-seat aircraft, this is estimated to take up to 4-5 hours at least. The actual time taken should be longer, due to logistic constraints and lack of manpower at PVG)
And this was from the NowTV piece at 6pm HKT https://news.now.com/home/internatio...05&refer=Share :
"華航表示取消即日起至明年一月底，由台灣桃園至浦東機場的載客航班，並減少由松山和高雄出發的班次，而考慮 到有旅客要返台過年，浦東回程返台的班機不受影響。"
(CI stated they will cancel TPE-PVG services from today to end of Jan, and reduce TSA-PVG and KHH-PVG frequencies. Owing to considerations of passengers returning to TW before CNY, PVG-Taiwan services will not be affected")
This suggests the restrictions will not apply to planes who fly empty to PVG, akin to how closed loop does not apply to overseas-HKG flights who only bring passengers from HKG but fly back to HKG empty https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cath...l#post33787994
Last edited by percysmith; Dec 27, 2021 at 7:53 am
Dec 27, 2021, 8:06 am
#12
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Dec 27, 2021, 8:12 am
#13
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(PVG is implementing new fumigation procedures. BR East China chief representative Lin stated to Taiwan Central News Agency, owing to new requirements announced by PVG on Christmas Eve, for all inbound passenger services, each seat must be fumigated individually. For a 300-seat aircraft, this is estimated to take up to 4-5 hours at least. The actual time taken should be longer, due to logistic constraints and lack of manpower at PVG)
But this makes outport airlines' same crew/double crew turnarounds at PVG impossible to plan - how long is your aircraft going to get cleaned?
Is PVG's objective trying to ban inbound passenger service to PVG?
Last edited by percysmith; Dec 27, 2021 at 8:19 am
Dec 27, 2021, 8:41 am
#14
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Bearing in mind that this subforum is completely open, I simply want to opine that PVG has probably not revealed the story yet, and telling DL about rule changes in advance would have been a friendly gesture.
Dec 27, 2021, 10:50 am
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Beijing Suspends Flights From NYC, LA Due To COVID Cases
"China saw daily cases surge to their highest level in 21 months over the weekend as authorities tightened a lockdown in Xi'an and launched a fourth round of mandatory citywide COVID testing."