Jiejie’s Adventures on the Silk Road
Nov 8, 2013, 8:54 am
#91
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: SQ, QF, UA, CO, DL
Posts: 2,894
A big thank you to Jiejie!
Based in good part on jieijie's comments here, three of us made an 8-day trip to Tashkorgan, Kashgar, Urumqi and Turpan in September. Thank you jiejie for a wonderful experience!!!
Our travel time was a bit shorter so we had to make some modifications to fit our schedule. In brief, I have to say that while I have traveled all over China in the last 35+ years this was totally different from any place I had ever been. Frankly Kashgar on down to the border reminded me a lot of Pakistan.
Some comments for people contemplating this kind of trip:
Language was not a major impediment for us when using Mandarin. Not many people spoke English but we never had difficulty using Mandarin. Probably the biggest challenge was understanding their accented Mandarin in response. In Tashkurgan especially we found everyone spoke decent Mandarin. Keep in mind our conversations were basic and not related to philosophy or physics. I was very surprised in Turpan how many taxis drivers and restaurant people wanted to speak English to us. Don't expect it, but you will encounter it.
If you are used to traveling in areas where English usage is minimal, you can manage this. For anyone else, this is doable, just be patient and build in extra time. Do no let language be the reason you do not visit, in fact, local people love to see visitors!
Silk Road Tours: we used them as well in Kashgar down to the Pakistan border. First off I need to say I would give them a solid recommendation based on their ethics and general understanding of safety and sanitation issues. However, were I to use them again, I would have a clearer conversation with Abdul, the owner, first. Do not hesitate to call him on Skype. We had two different guides, one for Kashgar and one on the highway to Pakistan and the experience was totally different. In Kashgar we had a great city tour, full of insights as well as historical knowledge and really had a good time. In the old city an elderly women invited us inside to have tea and did not know we had a Uighur guide! He looked that European! It was classic when they started to talk to each other!
The guide on the road had good English, understood a lot about what would our concerns and needs would be, but knew less than we had gleaned from the internet. As a Uighur he was great in Kashgar and Opal, the first large town you encounter when you leave Kashgar and head toward the border area. But from Lake Karakul onwards (a Kyrgyz area), his "information" was limited and even contradictory on some points. So, please have a conversation with Abdal and ask for his personal assurance that you have a strong guide who is knowledgeable and will make the best of your limited time in this area.
In Tashkorgan the Stone Fort is now fenced off by a very high fence to force everyone to use the official entrance and pay the entrance fee. It is well worth it so please be sure to go inside and explore the area. Unfortunately you will need to exit the same way you entered but on the opposite side of the entrance on the opposing hill and next to the Muslim cemetery you can find about half of an old Zoroastrian fire temple. This religion rivaled Christianity in the first few centuries after the birth of Christ and there are very few of these temples left outside of Iran and Central Asia. So if you don't mind climbing, go up and look for the largest ruin in the cemetery area, half of it is still there. (Our guide knew nothing of this or the history of the Stone Fort or what Zoroastrianism is). After this we were out of time but there is another old fort which we could not explore which our driver told was a KMT fort. Though his English was as limited as his Chinese, he told us stories of Xinjiang in the 30's and 40's when the government in Beijing installed a governor who also tried to curry favor with the Soviet Union. Everything from the mines was sold to the Soviets during this time and he personally collected a commission on every sale. This governor ended up being air ferried out of Chengdu to India by the US Air Force during WWII because he said he was leaving with a large entourage of government officials. Instead he showed up with over 10 million dollars in gold. Maybe true, in fact, probably true if you see his house in Urumqi. (But our guide knew none of this or the earlier history.)
We hiked around Lake Karakul which I recommend to anyone who likes walking. Lots of camels and yaks as well as beautiful scenery. I found that exercise helped to combat altitude sickness which was not debilitating but when we stopped moving it really did bother us. We found out that night as we tried to sleep in the "stone house" at Lake Karakul.
Honestly, sleeping in this or a yurt at this time of the hear would not matter as both go down to freezing at night. I loved jieijie's description of the Traffic Hotel in Tashkurgan. It is not air conditioned which also means it is NOT HEATED!!! Thankfully it is closed from October 15 for about 6 months as there is no way you could stay there in the winter. The windows have half inch gaps in them! You can sit on the toilet while putting your hands in the sink with the shower head directly over you! Of course there are now power outlets in the bathroom and only one in the room over the wall mounted TV because they never vacuum! Back to more useful recommendations.
There are a good number of restaurants in Tashkorgan but they are hard to find. On the main street where the Traffic Hotel is located, you would exit, make a right, and walk about three blocks. From the street they are hard to see but if you walk on the sidewalk right next to buildings (not next to the street) you can find several alcohol/tobacco shops (more in Tashkorgan than all of Kashgar I would wager) and even more Chinese restaurants. At this point we had had enough mutton in any form and willingly tried a Sichuan restaurant. The waitress was very honest when we asked what their best dishes were and what to avoid (in Chinese). No restaurant in Tashkorgan can sell beer or alcohol but many have such a store immediately next to them. So we could have beer, finally!
We met an Italian/Spanish couple who work as visiting professors of history and sociology in Beijing. They explained to us a lot of what we were seeing in terms of dress. Jiejie is spot on, the women are always well dressed here. To me, the headdress was like I Dream of Jeanie but only in black, white or red, not pink. Pillbox with a veil. And the women's skirts were all above the knee. I have never seen that before in a Muslim community. The sociology professor explained to me that this is not Tajik but Pamiri dress. There are less than 100,000 Pamiris left in Tajikistan and China yet China insists on calling their Pamiris Tajiks. Ethnically they are totally different as they have green, blue hazel and light brown eyes. If you change their dress and drop them in Europe you would think they were Roma. It was great to talk to our new friends but we only had that evening as they we were leaving deeper into the mountain communities the next day.
Our travel time was a bit shorter so we had to make some modifications to fit our schedule. In brief, I have to say that while I have traveled all over China in the last 35+ years this was totally different from any place I had ever been. Frankly Kashgar on down to the border reminded me a lot of Pakistan.
Some comments for people contemplating this kind of trip:
Language was not a major impediment for us when using Mandarin. Not many people spoke English but we never had difficulty using Mandarin. Probably the biggest challenge was understanding their accented Mandarin in response. In Tashkurgan especially we found everyone spoke decent Mandarin. Keep in mind our conversations were basic and not related to philosophy or physics. I was very surprised in Turpan how many taxis drivers and restaurant people wanted to speak English to us. Don't expect it, but you will encounter it.
If you are used to traveling in areas where English usage is minimal, you can manage this. For anyone else, this is doable, just be patient and build in extra time. Do no let language be the reason you do not visit, in fact, local people love to see visitors!
Silk Road Tours: we used them as well in Kashgar down to the Pakistan border. First off I need to say I would give them a solid recommendation based on their ethics and general understanding of safety and sanitation issues. However, were I to use them again, I would have a clearer conversation with Abdul, the owner, first. Do not hesitate to call him on Skype. We had two different guides, one for Kashgar and one on the highway to Pakistan and the experience was totally different. In Kashgar we had a great city tour, full of insights as well as historical knowledge and really had a good time. In the old city an elderly women invited us inside to have tea and did not know we had a Uighur guide! He looked that European! It was classic when they started to talk to each other!
The guide on the road had good English, understood a lot about what would our concerns and needs would be, but knew less than we had gleaned from the internet. As a Uighur he was great in Kashgar and Opal, the first large town you encounter when you leave Kashgar and head toward the border area. But from Lake Karakul onwards (a Kyrgyz area), his "information" was limited and even contradictory on some points. So, please have a conversation with Abdal and ask for his personal assurance that you have a strong guide who is knowledgeable and will make the best of your limited time in this area.
In Tashkorgan the Stone Fort is now fenced off by a very high fence to force everyone to use the official entrance and pay the entrance fee. It is well worth it so please be sure to go inside and explore the area. Unfortunately you will need to exit the same way you entered but on the opposite side of the entrance on the opposing hill and next to the Muslim cemetery you can find about half of an old Zoroastrian fire temple. This religion rivaled Christianity in the first few centuries after the birth of Christ and there are very few of these temples left outside of Iran and Central Asia. So if you don't mind climbing, go up and look for the largest ruin in the cemetery area, half of it is still there. (Our guide knew nothing of this or the history of the Stone Fort or what Zoroastrianism is). After this we were out of time but there is another old fort which we could not explore which our driver told was a KMT fort. Though his English was as limited as his Chinese, he told us stories of Xinjiang in the 30's and 40's when the government in Beijing installed a governor who also tried to curry favor with the Soviet Union. Everything from the mines was sold to the Soviets during this time and he personally collected a commission on every sale. This governor ended up being air ferried out of Chengdu to India by the US Air Force during WWII because he said he was leaving with a large entourage of government officials. Instead he showed up with over 10 million dollars in gold. Maybe true, in fact, probably true if you see his house in Urumqi. (But our guide knew none of this or the earlier history.)
We hiked around Lake Karakul which I recommend to anyone who likes walking. Lots of camels and yaks as well as beautiful scenery. I found that exercise helped to combat altitude sickness which was not debilitating but when we stopped moving it really did bother us. We found out that night as we tried to sleep in the "stone house" at Lake Karakul.
Honestly, sleeping in this or a yurt at this time of the hear would not matter as both go down to freezing at night. I loved jieijie's description of the Traffic Hotel in Tashkurgan. It is not air conditioned which also means it is NOT HEATED!!! Thankfully it is closed from October 15 for about 6 months as there is no way you could stay there in the winter. The windows have half inch gaps in them! You can sit on the toilet while putting your hands in the sink with the shower head directly over you! Of course there are now power outlets in the bathroom and only one in the room over the wall mounted TV because they never vacuum! Back to more useful recommendations.
There are a good number of restaurants in Tashkorgan but they are hard to find. On the main street where the Traffic Hotel is located, you would exit, make a right, and walk about three blocks. From the street they are hard to see but if you walk on the sidewalk right next to buildings (not next to the street) you can find several alcohol/tobacco shops (more in Tashkorgan than all of Kashgar I would wager) and even more Chinese restaurants. At this point we had had enough mutton in any form and willingly tried a Sichuan restaurant. The waitress was very honest when we asked what their best dishes were and what to avoid (in Chinese). No restaurant in Tashkorgan can sell beer or alcohol but many have such a store immediately next to them. So we could have beer, finally!
We met an Italian/Spanish couple who work as visiting professors of history and sociology in Beijing. They explained to us a lot of what we were seeing in terms of dress. Jiejie is spot on, the women are always well dressed here. To me, the headdress was like I Dream of Jeanie but only in black, white or red, not pink. Pillbox with a veil. And the women's skirts were all above the knee. I have never seen that before in a Muslim community. The sociology professor explained to me that this is not Tajik but Pamiri dress. There are less than 100,000 Pamiris left in Tajikistan and China yet China insists on calling their Pamiris Tajiks. Ethnically they are totally different as they have green, blue hazel and light brown eyes. If you change their dress and drop them in Europe you would think they were Roma. It was great to talk to our new friends but we only had that evening as they we were leaving deeper into the mountain communities the next day.
Last edited by uanj; Nov 8, 2013 at 10:31 am
Nov 8, 2013, 9:35 am
#92
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: SQ, QF, UA, CO, DL
Posts: 2,894
a few few more insights
After Lake Karakul we did the drive and the climb to the black glacier. I have seen many glaciers before but this may be the most unusual and the most beautiful. While we were are at about 14,000 ft or higher up the glacier cuts through black volcanic rock and as a result is completely coated in black dust. Really amazing, I can send you pictures if you want. While the climb is not dangerous, it is at high altitude and steep. But I encourage you to make if you can.
In Kashgar both before and after we stayed in the Wenzhou Hotel for 200 yuan a night. The internet really never worked but apart from the Sheraton in Urumqi (which was like paradise), I can say this hotel has the best breakfast in Xinjiang. Allow 30 minutes for check in and departure if you have a foreign passport. We tried John's café both in Kashgar and Turpan and would not say the food would impress you in a good way. Will not make you sick, either.
On the way back we walked down to the Old Kashgar City to see it at night and it was really beautifully lit. Because we walked on our own, we went through a public park next to it which had an enormous neon lit Ferris wheel. As well as a statues of an overly endowed Snow White, 7 dwarves, Mickey, Minnie, Pooh and other Disney favorites. Curious choice for a Muslim area.
Also, you will encounter (at least this year) a surprisingly large number of army troops everywhere. Don't let this shock you, it is only in Xinjiang. But you can also be asked for your passport at any time so be sure to carry it, not just when you travel by bus, train or air. There are army patrols throughout the cities and in the public parks and you will also see tank convoys on the highways between the cities.
Last comments to make are on Turpan. It is solidly on the commercial tourist circuit so there are entrance fees everywhere, even places where you would never willingly pay to enter like the Grape Village or China's hottest spot, Fire or Flaming Mountain (translated from Chinese, sorry). Do your research for Turpan and just visit the highly rated spots. Do not miss the museum and DO SKIP the grape village.
We tried John's café but found hiring a taxi from the bus station was much cheaper. We went first to Gaocheng leaving around 7 am to avoid the heat and really enjoyed our visit there. There are two ancient cities cities destroyed by the Mongolians in the 1200's and this is the larger (and further from Turpan) of the two. We skipped the donkey ride in (50 yuan per person for three) and after arriving at the largest structure in the ruins, the Buddhist temples, only paid 40 yuan for all three to take the cart the long way back. This way we saw all parts of the city. Please feel free to PM me for more details if you are interested.
Immediately next door we did visit the Astana tombs which are most notable for their very clean public toilets. In Kashgar County outside the city we were at first uncomfortable relieving ourselves in the open air. However, after visiting the few public toilets there are including Opal, we quickly concluded his was the most hygienic. The toilets at the Astana tombs are not inside the paid area and the contents of the tombs within, open to the public, have been removed to the Urumuqi Museum. So make a rest stop after Gaocheng and then head back to the city. No need to go inside.
Moondog, I know you went some years earlier. While I found Turpan interesting I just did not see the vibe you talked about. I worry that in the commercialism of the last 5 years it may be lost. If you go back, please be sure to share your comments. I find the China forum on FT to be really terrific (as well as the Africa forum) in this regard.
These are the highlights I would give to fellow travelers. But one more time, I must give a big thank you to jiejie because without her trip report, I would never have thought to visit this challenging and beautiful corner inside China. Thank you from the three of us jiejie!!!
In Kashgar both before and after we stayed in the Wenzhou Hotel for 200 yuan a night. The internet really never worked but apart from the Sheraton in Urumqi (which was like paradise), I can say this hotel has the best breakfast in Xinjiang. Allow 30 minutes for check in and departure if you have a foreign passport. We tried John's café both in Kashgar and Turpan and would not say the food would impress you in a good way. Will not make you sick, either.
On the way back we walked down to the Old Kashgar City to see it at night and it was really beautifully lit. Because we walked on our own, we went through a public park next to it which had an enormous neon lit Ferris wheel. As well as a statues of an overly endowed Snow White, 7 dwarves, Mickey, Minnie, Pooh and other Disney favorites. Curious choice for a Muslim area.
Also, you will encounter (at least this year) a surprisingly large number of army troops everywhere. Don't let this shock you, it is only in Xinjiang. But you can also be asked for your passport at any time so be sure to carry it, not just when you travel by bus, train or air. There are army patrols throughout the cities and in the public parks and you will also see tank convoys on the highways between the cities.
Last comments to make are on Turpan. It is solidly on the commercial tourist circuit so there are entrance fees everywhere, even places where you would never willingly pay to enter like the Grape Village or China's hottest spot, Fire or Flaming Mountain (translated from Chinese, sorry). Do your research for Turpan and just visit the highly rated spots. Do not miss the museum and DO SKIP the grape village.
We tried John's café but found hiring a taxi from the bus station was much cheaper. We went first to Gaocheng leaving around 7 am to avoid the heat and really enjoyed our visit there. There are two ancient cities cities destroyed by the Mongolians in the 1200's and this is the larger (and further from Turpan) of the two. We skipped the donkey ride in (50 yuan per person for three) and after arriving at the largest structure in the ruins, the Buddhist temples, only paid 40 yuan for all three to take the cart the long way back. This way we saw all parts of the city. Please feel free to PM me for more details if you are interested.
Immediately next door we did visit the Astana tombs which are most notable for their very clean public toilets. In Kashgar County outside the city we were at first uncomfortable relieving ourselves in the open air. However, after visiting the few public toilets there are including Opal, we quickly concluded his was the most hygienic. The toilets at the Astana tombs are not inside the paid area and the contents of the tombs within, open to the public, have been removed to the Urumuqi Museum. So make a rest stop after Gaocheng and then head back to the city. No need to go inside.
Moondog, I know you went some years earlier. While I found Turpan interesting I just did not see the vibe you talked about. I worry that in the commercialism of the last 5 years it may be lost. If you go back, please be sure to share your comments. I find the China forum on FT to be really terrific (as well as the Africa forum) in this regard.
These are the highlights I would give to fellow travelers. But one more time, I must give a big thank you to jiejie because without her trip report, I would never have thought to visit this challenging and beautiful corner inside China. Thank you from the three of us jiejie!!!
Last edited by uanj; Nov 8, 2013 at 10:01 am
Feb 9, 2014, 5:44 am
#93
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,934
First of all I'd like to thank jiejie for this thread, like others it inspired me to try visiting part of the Silk Road.
Over the last few days I was able to go see the following:
Jiayuguan
- Jiayuguan Fort, first Beacon Tower and Xuanbi Great Wall
- Wei Jin Tombs
- Wenshu Temple
Zhangye
- Wooden Pagoda
- Great Buddha Temple complex
- Danxia Landform
- Matisi
Being in the middle of winter it was quite cold with lows of -10 to -15C, but as a result it was quite empty so I got to see the sights, not a sea of people. A lot has already been written about most of the above places, so I won't go into describing them here.
The Wenshu Temple near Jiayuguan however, is something I didn't find in guidebooks, nor during my initial research on the internet for places to go. It was only after I mentioned to my taxi driver that I had seen the major sights in Jiayuguan and did he know any more? that he suggested the place to me.
It's about 20km or so south from Jiayuguan, about half an hour towards the Qilian mountains by car. A Tibetan monastery with a lot of temples built onto the mountainside, it was showing its age with faded and flaking paint here and there. However it looked to me as if it was undergoing renovation targeted at tourists, with concrete walkways etc. The following homepage I found after getting home shows what the place looks like:
http://www.allytaylor.com/bikes/chin...wenshu-temple/
Right next to Wenshu temple is a military base though, so don't go traipsing around taking photographs too freely. You don't want your stay to become longer than planned haha.
Also personally I felt the Wei Jin Tombs were a ripoff for the price. Given that the other sites were around 20-60RMB and you could spend more than an hour at each, the Wei Jin Tombs which could be finished in only a few minutes were at 31RMB, a complete waste. Incidentally I don't know but either there has been some massive ticket price devaluation or I got some season discount while I was there. The ticket to the Jiayuguan Fort, first Beacon Tower and Xuanbi Great Wall cost only 21RMB, and the ticket to the DaFoSi temple in Zhangye cost only 10RMB.
In Jiayuguan I used the Yinhong Hotel, which was pretty good on the basics. On the plus side the staff was friendly, also the room was large and clean. I didn't like the bathroom however with the shower that wet the entire floor, plus it took time for hot (tepid) water to flow. Also, rooms aren't made up by the staff every day, if you're particular about that. Location-wise it's on Yingbin road which the local buses ply so traveling to other parts of the city is easy. It's also a 10-15 minute walk from Datang Meishijie (大唐美食街), a food street with lots of hotpot and kebab places.
For Zhangye I decided to try out the Courtyard of Family Qiao right next to the Danxia Landform. It's way out of the city but I was hoping to see not just the mountain colors, but also a night sky full of stars, something you don't get to see in Guangzhou. Unfortunately it was cloudy (actually snowed!) when I was there. I got to see the danxia colors but not my stars. I also had a hard time getting back into town; I was ready to take the bus but after waiting for 1-1/2 hours in vain (during which two buses passed me by without stopping, probably full of pax), I decided to call for the taxi I used the previous day to get there. The hotel owner and his wife were really friendly, for dinner I shared dishes with another customer plus getting free baijiu shots from them to liven up the meal. On the following morning while waiting for my taxi I and got a free lunch while passing the time. They seemed to be really interested in making converation but sadly my Chinese isn't that good yet. The rooms are clean with heated floors, with shared squat toilet/shower combination bath.
Coming back to Jiyuguan from Zhangye I looked for the bathhouse that moondog mentioned, but aside from a fancy spa(?) hotel, I didn't see something that looked like one. At Zhangye I had skipped the shared shower, and it was really cold so I was looking forward to a hot bath, oh well.
During this trip, my iPhone was my guide, with the following apps helping me around:
- KTDict+ : chinese dictionary
- Baidu Ditu (百度地图) : for checking routes and bus connections
- Dianping (大众点评) : for looking for restaurants and other establishments
- ctrip (携程旅行) : for checking hotels and train timetables and making bookings
All in all it was a good interesting holiday and so I'm looking forward to exploring the Silk Road further to the west!
Over the last few days I was able to go see the following:
Jiayuguan
- Jiayuguan Fort, first Beacon Tower and Xuanbi Great Wall
- Wei Jin Tombs
- Wenshu Temple
Zhangye
- Wooden Pagoda
- Great Buddha Temple complex
- Danxia Landform
- Matisi
Being in the middle of winter it was quite cold with lows of -10 to -15C, but as a result it was quite empty so I got to see the sights, not a sea of people. A lot has already been written about most of the above places, so I won't go into describing them here.
The Wenshu Temple near Jiayuguan however, is something I didn't find in guidebooks, nor during my initial research on the internet for places to go. It was only after I mentioned to my taxi driver that I had seen the major sights in Jiayuguan and did he know any more? that he suggested the place to me.
It's about 20km or so south from Jiayuguan, about half an hour towards the Qilian mountains by car. A Tibetan monastery with a lot of temples built onto the mountainside, it was showing its age with faded and flaking paint here and there. However it looked to me as if it was undergoing renovation targeted at tourists, with concrete walkways etc. The following homepage I found after getting home shows what the place looks like:
http://www.allytaylor.com/bikes/chin...wenshu-temple/
Right next to Wenshu temple is a military base though, so don't go traipsing around taking photographs too freely. You don't want your stay to become longer than planned haha.
Also personally I felt the Wei Jin Tombs were a ripoff for the price. Given that the other sites were around 20-60RMB and you could spend more than an hour at each, the Wei Jin Tombs which could be finished in only a few minutes were at 31RMB, a complete waste. Incidentally I don't know but either there has been some massive ticket price devaluation or I got some season discount while I was there. The ticket to the Jiayuguan Fort, first Beacon Tower and Xuanbi Great Wall cost only 21RMB, and the ticket to the DaFoSi temple in Zhangye cost only 10RMB.
In Jiayuguan I used the Yinhong Hotel, which was pretty good on the basics. On the plus side the staff was friendly, also the room was large and clean. I didn't like the bathroom however with the shower that wet the entire floor, plus it took time for hot (tepid) water to flow. Also, rooms aren't made up by the staff every day, if you're particular about that. Location-wise it's on Yingbin road which the local buses ply so traveling to other parts of the city is easy. It's also a 10-15 minute walk from Datang Meishijie (大唐美食街), a food street with lots of hotpot and kebab places.
For Zhangye I decided to try out the Courtyard of Family Qiao right next to the Danxia Landform. It's way out of the city but I was hoping to see not just the mountain colors, but also a night sky full of stars, something you don't get to see in Guangzhou. Unfortunately it was cloudy (actually snowed!) when I was there. I got to see the danxia colors but not my stars. I also had a hard time getting back into town; I was ready to take the bus but after waiting for 1-1/2 hours in vain (during which two buses passed me by without stopping, probably full of pax), I decided to call for the taxi I used the previous day to get there. The hotel owner and his wife were really friendly, for dinner I shared dishes with another customer plus getting free baijiu shots from them to liven up the meal. On the following morning while waiting for my taxi I and got a free lunch while passing the time. They seemed to be really interested in making converation but sadly my Chinese isn't that good yet. The rooms are clean with heated floors, with shared squat toilet/shower combination bath.
Coming back to Jiyuguan from Zhangye I looked for the bathhouse that moondog mentioned, but aside from a fancy spa(?) hotel, I didn't see something that looked like one. At Zhangye I had skipped the shared shower, and it was really cold so I was looking forward to a hot bath, oh well.
During this trip, my iPhone was my guide, with the following apps helping me around:
- KTDict+ : chinese dictionary
- Baidu Ditu (百度地图) : for checking routes and bus connections
- Dianping (大众点评) : for looking for restaurants and other establishments
- ctrip (携程旅行) : for checking hotels and train timetables and making bookings
All in all it was a good interesting holiday and so I'm looking forward to exploring the Silk Road further to the west!
Feb 9, 2014, 6:29 am
#94
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,057
That was surely the same place (~8 story building with Vegas esque garishness)... I've never seen anything else quite like it (which is saying a lot given how much time I've spent traveling around China).
Oct 20, 2017, 6:22 pm
#96
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: AA MM PP, MR LT Plat, Globalist
Posts: 1,004
Jiejie's narrations are becoming part of my travel book collection!
Any experiences with Yarkand (Shache) ? - jiejie mentioned it but didn't visit. Wondering if it has roughly similar atmosphere to Kashgar.
Any experiences with Yarkand (Shache) ? - jiejie mentioned it but didn't visit. Wondering if it has roughly similar atmosphere to Kashgar.
Last edited by eethan; Oct 20, 2017 at 7:46 pm
May 27, 2018, 11:28 am
#97
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southeast USA
Programs: various
Posts: 6,710
Just received a private message from someone who had read this thread and is planning his own trip to Xinjiang. I advised him of some updates and thought I'd copy from that message reply and post here.
While most of what I wrote above is still very applicable, there have been some changes in the last few years that could affect planning for a Silk Road trip, here's what I think are the most relevant differences from when I went:
(1) Train system changes, of which the most profound is the High Speed Rail system, which was not available when I went. The HSR system has made Gansu/Xinjiang an easier and in some ways, faster travel proposition at least between Xi'an and Urumqi, but the downside is that this has also increased tourism, sometimes greatly so. New train stations dedicated mostly or completely to the HSR system have been built (The major ones being Lanzhou West, Zhangye West, Jiayuguan South, Liuyuan South (for Dunhuang), Turpan North, Urumqi South). The line connecting Xi'an - Baoji - Tianshui - Lanzhou was finally completed a year ago, making high speed journeys all the way from Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou to Urumqi now technically possible. Standard trains such as Z, T, K, numbered--continue to operate and can still be very good choices depending on the timing between your stops, and are still the mainstays for overnight sleeper travel. Other key train system change is in the booking period for tickets, which is now normally up to 30 days in advance.
(2a) Intercity bus system/road changes in Xinjiang. There have been a lot of road improvements especially in desert areas connecting Kashgar, Hotan, Aksu, Kuqa, and Korla as well as the southern Silk Road route leading from Hotan to Golmud in Qinghai province. While distances are still long and IMO get boring, at least regular buses of good quality are an option if train/flight is unavailable or nonexistent. Ticket purchasing: most intercity buses have now gone to real-ID for everyone including foreigners, and limit tickets to one per person. So take your passport to the bus station to purchase, and you can try but may not be able to replicate my buy-two-seats gambit.
(2b) Improvement in local transport in cities. Since my original writing, new subway lines have come into operation in Xi'an (with more coming on line in 2018 and 2019). Lanzhou and Urumqi have subway systems under construction and the first line in each city may become operational later in 2018. Lanzhou now has a fast rail link between airport and both Lanzhou and Lanzhou West train stations, but I understand it can be difficult to get tickets on a walk-up basis especially from airport into the city, so you may still have to resort to the older shuttle bus method (or taxi).
(3) Increased tourism. Turpan has built up a lot so some of the central area is looking more like a typical Chinese city, but this shouldn't detract from the villages and attractions that are mostly outside the city. Zhangye is now more on the tourist map than before; when I went, few knew about it. More scenic areas have been opened up in addition to the main Danxia, though the other scenic areas may have less infrastructure (and less tourists for now). There is more regular bus service between the town and the main Danxia, though private driver is still my recommendation for flexibility and efficiency. Dunhuang is still not on the main east-west train line but regardless, is seeing large increases in domestic and foreign tourism which leads me to item 4.
(4) Mogao Cave access. Is now much more capacity-restricted and tickets have become difficult to get, at least in the May-October busier season. Since this is one of the premier sights on the Silk Road, it pays to do a bit of homework and see if one's Dunhuang hotel or local agent can secure a ticket/reservation in advance of arrival. Unfortunately, the online purchase official website is nonfunctional for foreigners and the relevant authority seems to be in no hurry to change this. When I went, waltzing in on July 1, I could buy as walk-up but that likely won't work any more. Ticket supply has tightened and demand is way up. It is possible that most of the foreigner tickets are going to agents representing bus tour groups and other private client groups, with only a small few remaining for individual DIY travelers. Dunhuang may be one place where you want to locate a local agent and pay for a "tour" just to ensure someone is procuring a ticket for you. Probably not as much of an issue if visiting November-March/April low season.
(5) Karakoram Highway. The roadwork that turned part of the journey between Gez and Karakul into a bumpy mess in the 2016-2017 period seems to have been finished. As of this update, the Karakoram Highway (KKH) trip can be done by individuals using public transport from Kashgar up to Tashkorgan, without need for permit from the PSB in Kashgar. This is much cheaper than taking a private car/driver/tour, which seems to have increased greatly in price in the last 2-3 years. The main downside to use of public transport is inability to stop when and where you want, and lack of a guide/translator to interface with local people. Going beyond Tashkorgan up to the Khunjerab Pass still requires a Permit and private car/driver unless you are continuing on to Pakistan and have the Pakistani visa. The Oytagh Glacier area closed to visitors in 2014 and AFAIK has not yet been reopened. Finally, the yurts at Karakul are off-limits to foreigners for overnight stays, and this is being enforced now by local police.
(6) Decent hotels are more plentiful everywhere, but the cheapest ones, like the cheaper hostels, may not accept foreigners. Those on very tight budgets need to be aware of this and understand you may be paying more for a legal place to lay your head, vs east China. As for the hotels mentioned in my journey; I haven't checked on the latest status of each, but I do know that the Super8 Bayinhe in Urumqi permanently closed some time ago. As far as booking sites mentioned go: Sinohotel.com was absorbed some years ago by elong.com, which in turn was partly purchase by ctrip.com. Travelzen.com changed business models and went offline for consumer direct bookings early in 2015. I haven't heard a lot of discussion about using Airbnb and similar sites with respect to Gansu and XInjiang, but I would discourage doing so because of the security situation coupled with the lodging registration requirement. Unless staying with genuine family or friends in Xinjiang in particular, I would stick to licensed commercial lodging.
(7) In Xinjiang, security situation is much more tense due to incidents over the past few years, some of them fatal. Tourists have not been targeted but you will see more evidence of armed police, security checks on your person and baggage, etc. Gansu part of the Silk Road not affected so far.
(8) Prices change and usually upward, of course.
Happy travels!
While most of what I wrote above is still very applicable, there have been some changes in the last few years that could affect planning for a Silk Road trip, here's what I think are the most relevant differences from when I went:
(1) Train system changes, of which the most profound is the High Speed Rail system, which was not available when I went. The HSR system has made Gansu/Xinjiang an easier and in some ways, faster travel proposition at least between Xi'an and Urumqi, but the downside is that this has also increased tourism, sometimes greatly so. New train stations dedicated mostly or completely to the HSR system have been built (The major ones being Lanzhou West, Zhangye West, Jiayuguan South, Liuyuan South (for Dunhuang), Turpan North, Urumqi South). The line connecting Xi'an - Baoji - Tianshui - Lanzhou was finally completed a year ago, making high speed journeys all the way from Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou to Urumqi now technically possible. Standard trains such as Z, T, K, numbered--continue to operate and can still be very good choices depending on the timing between your stops, and are still the mainstays for overnight sleeper travel. Other key train system change is in the booking period for tickets, which is now normally up to 30 days in advance.
(2a) Intercity bus system/road changes in Xinjiang. There have been a lot of road improvements especially in desert areas connecting Kashgar, Hotan, Aksu, Kuqa, and Korla as well as the southern Silk Road route leading from Hotan to Golmud in Qinghai province. While distances are still long and IMO get boring, at least regular buses of good quality are an option if train/flight is unavailable or nonexistent. Ticket purchasing: most intercity buses have now gone to real-ID for everyone including foreigners, and limit tickets to one per person. So take your passport to the bus station to purchase, and you can try but may not be able to replicate my buy-two-seats gambit.
(2b) Improvement in local transport in cities. Since my original writing, new subway lines have come into operation in Xi'an (with more coming on line in 2018 and 2019). Lanzhou and Urumqi have subway systems under construction and the first line in each city may become operational later in 2018. Lanzhou now has a fast rail link between airport and both Lanzhou and Lanzhou West train stations, but I understand it can be difficult to get tickets on a walk-up basis especially from airport into the city, so you may still have to resort to the older shuttle bus method (or taxi).
(3) Increased tourism. Turpan has built up a lot so some of the central area is looking more like a typical Chinese city, but this shouldn't detract from the villages and attractions that are mostly outside the city. Zhangye is now more on the tourist map than before; when I went, few knew about it. More scenic areas have been opened up in addition to the main Danxia, though the other scenic areas may have less infrastructure (and less tourists for now). There is more regular bus service between the town and the main Danxia, though private driver is still my recommendation for flexibility and efficiency. Dunhuang is still not on the main east-west train line but regardless, is seeing large increases in domestic and foreign tourism which leads me to item 4.
(4) Mogao Cave access. Is now much more capacity-restricted and tickets have become difficult to get, at least in the May-October busier season. Since this is one of the premier sights on the Silk Road, it pays to do a bit of homework and see if one's Dunhuang hotel or local agent can secure a ticket/reservation in advance of arrival. Unfortunately, the online purchase official website is nonfunctional for foreigners and the relevant authority seems to be in no hurry to change this. When I went, waltzing in on July 1, I could buy as walk-up but that likely won't work any more. Ticket supply has tightened and demand is way up. It is possible that most of the foreigner tickets are going to agents representing bus tour groups and other private client groups, with only a small few remaining for individual DIY travelers. Dunhuang may be one place where you want to locate a local agent and pay for a "tour" just to ensure someone is procuring a ticket for you. Probably not as much of an issue if visiting November-March/April low season.
(5) Karakoram Highway. The roadwork that turned part of the journey between Gez and Karakul into a bumpy mess in the 2016-2017 period seems to have been finished. As of this update, the Karakoram Highway (KKH) trip can be done by individuals using public transport from Kashgar up to Tashkorgan, without need for permit from the PSB in Kashgar. This is much cheaper than taking a private car/driver/tour, which seems to have increased greatly in price in the last 2-3 years. The main downside to use of public transport is inability to stop when and where you want, and lack of a guide/translator to interface with local people. Going beyond Tashkorgan up to the Khunjerab Pass still requires a Permit and private car/driver unless you are continuing on to Pakistan and have the Pakistani visa. The Oytagh Glacier area closed to visitors in 2014 and AFAIK has not yet been reopened. Finally, the yurts at Karakul are off-limits to foreigners for overnight stays, and this is being enforced now by local police.
(6) Decent hotels are more plentiful everywhere, but the cheapest ones, like the cheaper hostels, may not accept foreigners. Those on very tight budgets need to be aware of this and understand you may be paying more for a legal place to lay your head, vs east China. As for the hotels mentioned in my journey; I haven't checked on the latest status of each, but I do know that the Super8 Bayinhe in Urumqi permanently closed some time ago. As far as booking sites mentioned go: Sinohotel.com was absorbed some years ago by elong.com, which in turn was partly purchase by ctrip.com. Travelzen.com changed business models and went offline for consumer direct bookings early in 2015. I haven't heard a lot of discussion about using Airbnb and similar sites with respect to Gansu and XInjiang, but I would discourage doing so because of the security situation coupled with the lodging registration requirement. Unless staying with genuine family or friends in Xinjiang in particular, I would stick to licensed commercial lodging.
(7) In Xinjiang, security situation is much more tense due to incidents over the past few years, some of them fatal. Tourists have not been targeted but you will see more evidence of armed police, security checks on your person and baggage, etc. Gansu part of the Silk Road not affected so far.
(8) Prices change and usually upward, of course.
Happy travels!
Last edited by jiejie; May 30, 2018 at 11:31 am Reason: addl info for items 1, 2, 6
May 27, 2018, 1:34 pm
#98
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 353
I was in Xinjiang last October for the Golden Week but it wasn't overcrowded that much.
The security checks were more the further north we came.
We went to Kanas National Park at the Russian border and the army checked our passports a lot.
But we never had any problems and they were always friendly at the check points.
Even if they always failed to scan my german passport so they had to copy it all the time.
The last 200 km to Kasgar we had to hire a local driver and he had to stop a few times as the army installed cameras on the road to check the number plate and they had more security checks near the National Park but no problem at all.
We even could stay at a local guesthouse overnight without any problems.
Cash for a bed and everything was fine.
Later we went to Dunhuang and my chinese girlfriend bought a ticket for the Mogao Cave online very easily.
Unfortunately her ID was blocked to buy a ticket for a foreigner (it´s a seperate booking and you can either buy just tickets for chinese or foreigners but not both on 1 ID) so we called her sister and she booked a ticket for me without any problems.
And at the entrance gate they didn´t care about whih ticket you have and I could join the chinese group without any problems although I had a ticket for an english guided tour).
So if you´re a mixed couple you need 2 chinese ID´s.
But I´m sure every hotel can help you out.
The security checks were more the further north we came.
We went to Kanas National Park at the Russian border and the army checked our passports a lot.
But we never had any problems and they were always friendly at the check points.
Even if they always failed to scan my german passport so they had to copy it all the time.
The last 200 km to Kasgar we had to hire a local driver and he had to stop a few times as the army installed cameras on the road to check the number plate and they had more security checks near the National Park but no problem at all.
We even could stay at a local guesthouse overnight without any problems.
Cash for a bed and everything was fine.
Later we went to Dunhuang and my chinese girlfriend bought a ticket for the Mogao Cave online very easily.
Unfortunately her ID was blocked to buy a ticket for a foreigner (it´s a seperate booking and you can either buy just tickets for chinese or foreigners but not both on 1 ID) so we called her sister and she booked a ticket for me without any problems.
And at the entrance gate they didn´t care about whih ticket you have and I could join the chinese group without any problems although I had a ticket for an english guided tour).
So if you´re a mixed couple you need 2 chinese ID´s.
But I´m sure every hotel can help you out.
May 28, 2018, 5:43 pm
#100
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
Programs: AAdvantage Platinum
Posts: 1,894
Thanks for the updates, jiejie. I suppose this would be a brutal trip to do during the winter. As I mentioned to you privately, I'd planned to do Xinjiang this fall, but I could take more time and go a bit more leisurely in January before CNY gets underway (Feb. 5, 2019). Plus I've found January is a good time to find reasonable J fares to PEK. A friend of mine went to Harbin (NE China) this past winter. He wanted to see the famous ice festival. He managed. I kidded him about "going practically to Siberia in January." I'd be dong the same, and I'll never hear the end of it from him. 
May 28, 2018, 6:33 pm
#101
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southeast USA
Programs: various
Posts: 6,710
I really advise against doing a Xinjiang trip between Nov-Mar. Even last part of October and April are iffy. Harbin and Northeast China may have brutal winter weather but at least have specific winter attractions and activities for locals and visitors; Central and Northern Xinjiang including Urumqi will not only have equally brutal temperatures but not so much to do. A lot of the tourist infrastructure will go dormant and places like the KKH may not be accessible due to snow. September would be a better time to go, but finish up so you can avoid Oct 1-7 national holiday period.
May 29, 2018, 10:28 am
#103
Join Date: Jan 2005
Programs: SQ, QF, UA, CO, DL
Posts: 2,894
Grateful for the update, Jiejie! The restrictions on foreigners overnighting in yurts at Lake Karakul makes sense in a way. I doubt they are set up to do the overnight foreigner registration, something I thought about when I went. Given the increased security levels in Xinjiang and Lake Karakul's location on this particular highway, I can see that that will no longer be overlooked.
One other point I would add is that if a traveler is short on time, there are far, far more flights available now even within Xinjiang so you many more travel options than before. On the flip side the remoteness of some of these places is starting to fade away.
One other point I would add is that if a traveler is short on time, there are far, far more flights available now even within Xinjiang so you many more travel options than before. On the flip side the remoteness of some of these places is starting to fade away.
May 30, 2018, 7:00 am
#104
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 42,057
While it's true that massive capacity has been added wrt both air and rail, many Chinese people fear Xinjiang, which makes it a bargain destination most of the time. This doesn't apply to SuV rentals, but getting out there, hotels, and food are pretty cheap.