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Actually you have other choices, you just aren't practiced enough at China travel to know what they are. Which is why we're here to help you think out of the box. Working with what you have already set up (HK-Shenzhen-Chengdu-Lijiang, and leaving from Beijing), my recommendations are:
1) Omit Shangri-la this time around. I was just there this past week, and it is rather bleak and frankly a bit depressing. A lot of the hostels and cafes are shut or will be shutting down, definitely by the time you would be there. And if there is snow on the road, forget it. You are just too late in the year to really get the benefit of going up there and spending time. 2) Stop focusing 100% on trains. That's always a problem especially when dealing with Yunnan. Often the bus is a better option. 3) Don't even think of trying that Dali-Kunming and Kunming-Zhangjiajie connection. It might work, but if there is any delay on the Dali outbound, you are toast. So dealing with the middle part of your itinerary and reworking: Day5 Arrive Lijiang 08:45 / Lijiang (rest of day is enough for Old Town) Day6 Lijiang / Lijiang (try Shuhe, Baisha, Yuhu, nearby villages) Day7 Lijiang / Lijiang (Jade Dragon Mtn if you want) Day8 Bus to Qiaotou, start Tiger Leaping Gorge hike, stay ovrnght in guesths Day9 Finish hike, back to Qiaotou, bus direct to Dali Day10 Dali Day11 Dali Day12 First bus out Dali to Kunming arrive midday; late aft or eve train Kunming-Huaihua * Day13 Arrive Huaihua am or by noon. Bus to Fenghuang, FH rest of day and evening. Day14 Bus am Fenghuang to Zhangjiajie (may have to change @ Jishou) Day15 Zhangjiajie / Zhangjiajie Day16 Zhangjiajie / Zhangjiajie Day17 Board train to Beijing 12:47 / Train to Beijing --There are many express buses daily from Dali to Kunming, probably at least one per hour throughout the day, takes 4 to 4.5 hours on expressway. Much better choice than the train, which is crap quality (especially the overnight) and slower. Spend your last night in Dali, get up fairly early, and be on the first or second bus out. Remember Dali has Old and New parts that are aways apart, and most long-distance buses leave from New Dali (Xiaguan). The idea is to arrive in Kunming (West Bus Station) with at least 3 hours before train departure, to give you time to transfer + have a meal/relax a bit and not be rushed. --If you get tired of Dali early, you can head out by bus the previous day and give yourself a day in Kunming. Flexibility! -- * Your focus on Kunming-Zhangjiajie train has foreclosed on other options. Most trains on this line from Kunming actually get as far as Huaihua junction, then go towards Changsha rather than north. If you plan to take an overnight train and hop off at Huaihua then continue by higher-frequency bus, you will find much better train choices: my recommendations in order for the Kunming Huaihua route are K80 then K156 then T62 (harder to get sleeper) then K338. You can check schedules yourself and ponder the possibilities. -- The K80 leaves Kunming rail station at 16:36 and arrives Huaihua at 9:44 am next day, which gives you lots of time to grab a bus to Fenghuang (or Dehang--research both and see which grabs you more). But the other train options I listed are OK also, and it's good to have backups in case of sell-outs. If you can make up your mind, try buying your ticket in advance in Shenzhen or Chengdu (at remote office or station, whatever is more convenient). Perhaps your Chengdu friend could do this for you as soon as the 10-day sales period kicks in. These cities should now be able to sell for journeys beginning elsewhere. This would take a load off your mind. Then scheduling the bus trips around that is easy. -- Doesn't seem as if most people need 3 full days in Zhangjiajie, so diverting at least one to Fenghuang or Dehang would be a good idea. There's only so many rocks one can look at. -- I think your biggest issue may be the Zhangjiajie-Beijing train, as I doubt if ZJJ station is authorized to sell many sleepers, not being an originating station. You may have to either get a hard seat and try to upgrade on board, or think about expanding options by heading over by bus to Changsha and catching one of more choice of trains, or even plane, from there. |
:eek: I'm impressed! :D Will skip Shangri-La and take the bus from Dali to Kunming. But this ...
Originally Posted by jiejie
(Post 17486713)
Day12 ... late aft or eve train Kunming-Huaihua *
Day13 Arrive Huaihua am or by noon. Bus to Fenghuang, FH rest of day and evening. Day14 Bus am Fenghuang to Zhangjiajie (may have to change @ Jishou) I can't buy the Ticket Zhangjiajie Beijing in Lijiang, only in Kunming, right? That would be only 6 days in advance so the chance to get it wouldn't be high, right? There are cheap flights from Changsha to Beijing sometimes. If I book now they want 1090RMB, but the rate goes down to 660RMB on some dates. If they will offer this price for my date this would be a better option than taking the train? Softsleeper would also cost 555RMB. So I have to visit ctrip often. I dont speak chinese, have to plan most things in advance. Thanks for your help. |
Originally Posted by 31570324
(Post 17487120)
:eek: I'm impressed! :D Will skip Shangri-La and take the bus from Dali to Kunming. But this ...
... sounds a little bit exhausting. Your itinerary wouldn't cut the total travel time to reach Zhangjiajie, but it would give me a half day and a night in Fenghuang? I can't buy the Ticket Zhangjiajie Beijing in Lijiang, only in Kunming, right? That would be only 6 days in advance so the chance to get it wouldn't be high, right? There are cheap flights from Changsha to Beijing sometimes. If I book now they want 1090RMB, but the rate goes down to 660RMB on some dates. If they will offer this price for my date this would be a better option than taking the train? Softsleeper would also cost 555RMB. So I have to visit ctrip often. I dont speak chinese, have to plan most things in advance. Thanks for your help. --If you decide to go to Fenghuang, buses from Huaihua-Fenghuang take about 2 to 2.5 hours and I think leave regularly (one or two per hour). At Fenghuang, there are express buses to Zhangjiajie ciy (abt 4 hours) but maybe not too many each day. There would always be "slow bus" options though. Also wouldn't deal with this in advance. Good strategy is once arriving on the inbound, check the schedule for next day's outbound options so you have some targets and can organize your sightseeing time then know when to be at bus station. No need to get to bus stations really early for departure, most only load up the bus with passengers 10-15 minutes beforehand . --For Zhangjiajie -> Beijing, maybe I spoke too hastily above and the situation is not so bleak. Not sure if other stations are able to sell these tickets. Best guess on your route would be Kunming Station, definitely worth a try when you get in there from Dali. I think your best bet is actually the early evening train K968 since it originates in ZJJ. This would maximize your day in ZJJ park. But it takes a bit longer than the K268 which originates back in Huaihua. And cuts time off of Beijing, which may not be a problem for you since you've been in BJ before. If you end up with the K268, you'll be leaving early enough that the departure morning will not be useful for sightseeing but you'll get those extra 8 hours in Beijing. --Remember Zhangjiajie City (transport hub) and Zhangjiajie Scenic Area are about 40 minutes apart and still need a local transport bridging gap solution, usually taxi, local public minibus, etc. Don't sweat details like this, you have time to do internet research on these minor connections, and usually it's easy to figure this out on the spot when you arrive, even for non-Chinese speakers. Also remember that if you aren't a local in ZJJ you are a tourist, and all the tourists are headed to the Scenic Area/Park...so they've got this well figured out. Just make sure you allow this extra little bit of time, especially if you will be staying in the park not the town, and then need to get to the train station. --Get familiar with the Zhangjiajie entry ticket/pricing structure. I thought a ticket was for 2 days, and if staying outside the park between the days, needed to check in with the rangers/ticket area before you leave on Day 1 so they can validate it or something. I'm not sure what the current drill is on this. ZJJ is quite expensive for entry fee, just like most natural scenic areas in China now, and has ancillary costs associated with it not just the official entrance fee. So don't get caught out surprised--do your homework! This factor may determine whether you want (can afford) to spend more than 2 day in the park. --I think if you get your arms around Zhangjiajie and how much time you really need there, you can work the schedule in reverse a bit and then figure out if you have time to go to Fenghuang first. Most people like to stay there at least one full day and couple of nights, but speedy visit is doable. I doubt if you will need to deal with connecting in Jishou unless you are more interested in going to Dehang (quieter and less touristed, more rural). --Don't worry about not speaking Chinese. The best advance research you could do would include printing out the characters for your destinations and also for things like "soft sleeper." Take a small phrasebook with you and you can always point. Usually there will be a younger Chinese 20-ish somewhere around that knows enough English to help you out. --Remember that in late December, days are short so your useable daylight will be from around 7:30 or 8:00 to 16:00. Important if you are planning things like outdoor hiking. --You will do fine even without Chinese language. Bring a little patience and a sense of humor. |
Originally Posted by jiejie
(Post 17488437)
--Get familiar with the Zhangjiajie entry ticket/pricing structure. I thought a ticket was for 2 days, and if staying outside the park between the days, needed to check in with the rangers/ticket area before you leave on Day 1 so they can validate it or something. I'm not sure what the current drill is on this.
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I do a little research and thought 3 full days in Zhangjiajie would be nice. Did I understand it right and they are two parks and I have to pay entrace for each of it? Tianmenshan Mountain and Wulingyuan Scenic Area? So I could spend two days in Wulingyuan Scenic Area and one at Tianmenshan Mountain.
K968/K965 would be an option if I cant get K268, but I would prefer the train starting 12:47. Could take it a day later so I will be in Beijing only for the daytime and go to the airport same day. Just want to meet someone for a couple of hours and try a peking duck because I didnt try it the last times I was there :D Dehang looks also very nice, but I think there is no time to go there. Seems to be a very small village with only a few tourists. Sounds like fun, but I think its better for another time of the year than the winter, so I should go to Fenghuang. |
The Kunming-Beijing part of the trip, including time spent at Zhangjiajie, is going to hinge on getting that Zhangjiajie-Beijing train ticket you want--or finding an alternative strategy. A look on the official Railways website (Chinese only), reveals that it appears tickets on these two trains K268 originating Huaihua and K968 originating ZJJ have advance sales windows of 5 days only, not 10 days. I entered values for 5 days from today, and there are some sleepers left (esp hard sleeper on K968 evening train), but I'm sure those will get soaked up as the actual departure date approaches. And you will be traveling after a holiday (January 1-3 is an official holiday in China). This frankly, does not bode well for you to successfully purchase a ticket by yourself on either of these trains for either Day 17 or 18 of your trip, since in Kunming you'll be too early for sales and once arriving in ZJJ, likely to be sold out. You could try buying at Huaihua rail station when you arrive from Kunming, before heading to bus station. But...no guarantees and it would make me a little anxious unless I had backup cash to throw money at the problem at book a last-minute flight to get me to Beijing.
I suggest you start thinking about alternative strategies now: 1) Locate the hotel or guesthouse you want to stay at in ZJJ, and have them get a ticket if they agree (they will surcharge). There's always some angst about this, as to whether when you arrive, they will have actually done it successfully. 2) Consider flying from ZJJ even though expensive (over RMB 1000). At least you could do this in advance and KNOW you will be getting back to Beijing in time. From ZJJ, the CZ 17:15 on January 3 is probably the way to go, which would give you 5 extra hours in ZJJ area compared to your first-choice train. You'll likely get better pricing if you wait to buy until just before you leave for your trip, or just after you arrive in China, it's a bit early now. Flying afternoon of January 3 for BJ arrival that evening will give you an extra day (the 4th) as backup in case of bad weather or flight cancellations. Always adviseable if you have an international flight at 2 am January 5 that you must make. 3) Consider getting to a better transportation location, such as Changsha. Buses now do the ZJJ (city)-Changsha route in about 4 hours, and leave frequently throughout the day. You could leave ZJJ by bus on the 17th around the same time you had planned for the midday train. Once in Changsha and allowing for time to get to either rail station or airport, you have some evening options for getting to Beijing the next day (train) or that evening (plane). Lots of good trains out of Changsha--the Z18 and T2 originate there, and about 5 more T trains passing through. These trains should definitely be bookable 10 days in advance, and possibly at the Kunming station. If you want to do plane out of Changsha, the flights to Beijing are often fairly heavily discounted, and if purchased about 2-3 weeks in advance of flying, can be had all-in for 700-800 RMB. I would have my exit strategy from ZJJ (or Changsha) in place well before arriving in ZJJ, so that you can then backwards-figure the time you have between getting off at Huaihua station, Fenghuang, and ZJJ. You may have to make some real-time field adjustments based on the ticketing strategy and situation. And yes, I believe there is a separate entrance fee for Tianmenshan. And that the Wulingyuan park is the one that the ticket is good for up to 2 days. But double-check on that, as my info may be a bit dated with the new practices. Like that fingerprint machine thing tauphi mentions above--friends of mine went to ZJJ earlier in 2011 and that didn't exist then. |
Originally Posted by jiejie
(Post 17495255)
From ZJJ, the CZ 17:15 on January 3 is probably the way to go, which would give you 5 extra hours in ZJJ area compared to your first-choice train.
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Originally Posted by tauphi
(Post 17496390)
You can also fly to PEK from CGD, although it's not a daily flight and the fare is slightly more expensive than CSX but it's still significantly cheaper than flying from DYG, and saves a couple of hours on the road with respect to CSX.
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Changde isn't a real option, there is only one flight and the lowest price would be 1010RMB including tax. If I book a flight from Changsha it would cost 720RMB including tax now, if I wait it could go down another 60RMB.
Would be enough to arrive 5 january in beijing, flight to europe will go 6 january 2am. Just need about 6 hours in the city, but shouldn't arrive to close to departure time. First will try to get a train ticket from Zhangjiajie to Beijing in Kunming for 3 or 4 january. If I can't get one will book a flight. Wuhan could be an option, too. Its a 8 hours bus ride instead Changsha 4.5 hours and there will be a lot flights to Beijing. I'm sure I will get home in time ;) |
What would be your advice to reach Zhangjiajie from Nanchang? Are there direct buses? I didnt found a direct train.
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Originally Posted by 31570324
(Post 17498647)
First will try to get a train ticket from Zhangjiajie to Beijing in Kunming for 3 or 4 january. If I can't get one will book a flight. Wuhan could be an option, too. Its a 8 hours bus ride instead Changsha 4.5 hours and there will be a lot flights to Beijing. I'm sure I will get home in time ;)
Therefore, I encourage you to think more seriously about flying (and I am a train lover). |
Originally Posted by moondog
(Post 17525876)
Therefore, I encourage you to think more seriously about flying (and I am a train lover).
If I follow my last planing, I will fly from Kunming to Nanchang to visit someone, then take a train to Changsha and a bus to Zhangjiajie. Go back from Zhangjiajie to Chansgha is an option, but only if I could get a cheap flight. Otherwise I would prefer to make my first chinese overnighttrain experience :D Edit: Ok will change the direction. Kunming to Huaihua, Bus to Zhangjiajie, Bus to Changsha, Train to Nanchang, Plane to Beijing. Flights from Nanchang to Beijing are very cheap (390RMB + Tax) and I could take a morning flight, so I will only spend the daytime in Beijing. Any advice against this route? Day1 Arrive 10am Hongkong / Hongkong Day2 Hongkong / Hongkong Day3 Hongkong and Shenzhen / Shenzhen Day4 Arrive Chengdu 11:30 / Chengdu Day5 Arrive Lijiang 08:45, visit old town / Lijiang Day6 Lijiang Jade Dragon Mtn / Lijiang Day7 Lijiang Shuhe, Baisha, Yuhu, nearby villages / Lijiang Day8 Bus to Qiaotou, start Tiger Leaping Gorge / Tiger Leaping Gorge Day9 Finish Tiger Leaping Gorge, Bus to Dali ... / Dali Day10 Dali / Dali Day11 Dali, Bus to Kunming, depart 16:36 Train to Huaihua / Train to Huaihua Day12 Arrive Huaihua 9:44, Bus to Zhangjiajie / Zhangjiajie Day13 Zhangjiajie / Zhangjiajie Day14 Zhangjiajie / Zhangjiajie Day15 Zhangjiajie / Zhangjiajie Day16 Bus to Changsha in the morning, Depart Changsha 11:30, Arrive Nanchang 15:04 / Nanchang Day17 Nanchang / Nanchang Day18 Nanchang / Nanchang Day19 Depart Nanchang 10:45, Arrive Beijing 12:55, Go into the city for one evening / Airport Day20 Depart 02:00 Could also spend one night in Fenghuang and stay in Nanchang only 2 nights. |
Day 16 isn't going to work. There's no way you are going to get from ZJJ to Changsha West Bus Station to Changsha Rail Station in time to buy a ticket and make that 11:30 D train. You'd have to leave ZJJ by about 6 am and there won't be public bus going out that early. Nor should you want to be on those roads in the dark--too dangerous. My suggestion would be to try to grab something like an 8 am bus to Changsha, arriving around lunchtime, then change buses (you may or may not have to change to the East Bus Station) for Nanchang and forget about the train. You'd still get to Nanchang by sundown on day 16. Unfortunately, there's no Changsha-Nanchang train in the early afternoon and the next train is way later.
I personally would choose to spend an afternoon/evening in Fenghuang rather than 3 nights in Nanchang if it's just a casual friend you are visiting. Only a very dear friend or family member would have me spending 3 nights in Nanchang. :p |
Originally Posted by jiejie
(Post 17527351)
Day 16 isn't going to work. There's no way you are going to get from ZJJ to Changsha West Bus Station to Changsha Rail Station in time to buy a ticket and make that 11:30 D train. You'd have to leave ZJJ by about 6 am and there won't be public bus going out that early.
Originally Posted by jiejie
(Post 17527351)
Nor should you want to be on those roads in the dark--too dangerous.
Originally Posted by jiejie
(Post 17527351)
I personally would choose to spend an afternoon/evening in Fenghuang rather than 3 nights in Nanchang if it's just a casual friend you are visiting. Only a very dear friend or family member would have me spending 3 nights in Nanchang. :p
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Originally Posted by 31570324
(Post 17527609)
Which time will the last bus depart to Changsha? Could take it and then catch the train next day. 10 hours in a bus? I do this only one time, New York to Toronto in a bus during night, dont need a ride like this again.
You mean just the traffic? Never feel fear when walk through the dark in china. Hehe, less than a casual friend. But if I could get a free guide in my native language why shouldn't I take the offer? :p Is it such a bad city? Even I could get a cheap flight from a good connected airport to beijing, so it will help me with my planing, too. Yes I mean road/traffic/driver/vehicle safety as opposed to crime. It is unsafe to be on the roads at night and particularly the windy mountain ones. Way way too many horrific accidents, and foreigners are not immune to being killed on China's roads. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. On intercity roads whether in bus or private car, daylight only except in dire emergencies. I can't be clearer than that. Your trip schedule does not present any dire emergencies. For "less than a casual friend" and just to get a "free guide" in a city that's basically boring with little to see? Well, it's your time and money. Sorry, but I don't think it helps with your planning at all to go detouring to Nanchang. Though I suppose you could head up the road and visit Lushan, then train over to Wuhan and fly to Beijing from there. Look, I've just done a whole bunch of daytime bus rides in Yunnan and they aren't that bad. Especially something that's about 3.5-4 hours, then arrive in Changsha to stretch legs and have lunch, then another 3.5-4 hours to Nanchang. I suspect a heck of a lot better experience than the New York-Toronto trip. |
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