I have over the past few months asked fellow members advise about certain possible cities we may have to go to work.

The boss has finally said "Wenzhou" probably, which is better than "Ningbo" maybe.

So I need your collective advise again. What do you think about Wenzhou? I can't find a Carafour or Tesco there. There is no Costco.

Is this place foreigner friendly? Any insight of people who have been there will be greatly appreciated. I have to make a definite decision by next month so I still have time to back out.

I agree with this advice, except to say that the gap between these two choices is much more substantial. Wenzhou is one of the most prosperous cities in China and it shows. You owe it to yourself to check it out.

I've spent time in Wenzhou on two occasions, and it's not somewhere I would happily settle, although I must admit I couldn't care less about Carrefour, Tesco, or Costco (if such things matter stay in North America or Europe, surely. China has it's own stores, foods, and other attractions.) There's very little to do in Wenzhou, the hotels (very new openings aside--it's about three years since I was last there) are very modest, and while many foreign buyers pass through the town the number of resident foreigners is not great as far as I could tell at the time (if this is what you mean by 'foreigner-friendly'--personally I'm happy to deal with the Chinese). I saw, I think, a total of two foreign faces in about two weeks spent in the town overall.

There's been considerable destruction and rebuilding there, and (according to a taxi driver) prices for apartments are sky-high. Tradition has it that Wenzhou taxi drivers are all failed businessmen gathering funds for their next start-ups, and indeed the quality of the driving seems poor even by Chinese standards. An offshore island was once the home of foreign consulates, and is worth a stroll. One pedestrianised down-town shopping street has refurbished foreign-style department stores, endless foreign fast food, etc. The countryside around the city certainly has its beauties, and I'm a fan of the Taishun area, just inland to the south. Your nearest city actually of any interest would be smaller Quanzhou to the south (Fuzhou isn't much, either, although more attractive than Wenzhou perhaps.) Overall, I'd rather live in Ningbo, if those were the options. The centre is certainly more attractive, interesting little towns like Shaoxing are close at hand, and Shanghai not far either.

In haste,

Peter N-H

I've spent quite a bit of time in the Wenzhou area, and really wouldn't recommend it as a place for a foreigner to live/work. Ningbo is a bit more "worldly" and has easy access to Shanghai now via the Hangzhou Bay bridge. Not much of a permanent foreign presence at all in Wenzhou, if that is what you mean by foreigner friendly.

A little background on Wenzhou, as there is a dearth of information available on the web regarding lower tier Chinese cities. Historically, Wenzhou was a fishing village/port. It is in valley ringed by steep mountains, and thus cut off from the rest of China. This isolation left the city with its own very distinct dialect (unintelligible even on the other side of the mountains) , and with a self sufficient/entrepreneurial environment which came in handy when the economy opened up. Wenzhou is now one of the most prosperous cities in China, and most of the wealth is in private hands, as Beijing had little interest in this remote city. Today, Wenzhou boasts arguably the most over the top examples of noveau riche excess in all of China. If you make a trip there, you will understand what I mean.

While it is an interesting place o, I really wouldn't recommend Wenzhou to anyone in need of expat amenities (like a Carrefour etc). Ningbo isn't great either, but would be my choice between the two by a large margin.

Safe travels

I go with Ningbo, rather than Wenzhou. The difference of the airports says everything about these two cities.

Wenzhou is close to Yandangshan (mountain). It's one of the top ten mountains to visit in China, or so they want you to believe. I don't think it will be like Huashan or Lushan, but it's probably better than dealing with all the industrious Wenzhou-ese.

If there is not much for a foreigner to do in Wenzhou. You could spend your time learning the local dialect. Then listen in on their conversation to figure out how to make money.

It's much easier to figure out how to make money than to master the Wenzhou dialect. The Wenzhou-ese is like the Navajo code talkers.

I haven't been to Ningbo but have lived and taught in Wenzhou for the past 7 weeks. If you are looking for western amenities, these are more available in other cities in China. It was described to me that Wenzhou is a "Chinese" city as opposed to an international city and I would agree...though it is wealthy - I have been told that only Shanghai has more money in it.

In terms of the number of foreigners living in Wenzhou, there are very few - and there are no expat communities on-line that I can find.

The one nice thing about Wenzhou is that it is well situated for traveling if you are looking to go both north and south, and there are several nice areas surrounding the city, such as Yandang Shan and the Nanxi River area. Also, with the high speed trains beginning to open up, you are not very far away from Shanghai...

Hope this helps.

Thanks all for the insight.

We will go to check things out next month.

Hey Taiwaned,

Please let me know what you find and what you decide. We are moving to Wenzhou in Jan/Feb. 2010 and the more information we know ahead of time the better. Thanks in advance.

Travelwriterdoris

Dear Taiwaned

Wish you happy journey to Wenzhou. I have been in Wenzhou few times and know the city and people somewhat.

Don�t try to learn Wenzhou dialect. It is impossible. It could be easier if you are a fluent Chinese speaker and know few other Chinese dialects as well. I have two �Learn Wenzhou dialect� books in hand. The better one is �Speak Wenzhou Language� Author Tian Hongjiang, published by China Theatre Publishing Company. Don�t worry. People in Wenzhou all speak Mandarin.

I list few of my impression below for your information:

It is very common for females to hold each others hands and waist. So don�t think they are having a gay convention there. Actually lots of Wenzhou people don�t know there are homosexuals.

Hotels are modest. Actually lower prices are acceptable. Higher end hotels are very expensive. There is one Shangri-la which is more expensive than the one located in Tainan, Taiwan, ridiculous!

Watch out when you do business in Wenzhou. It seems that most business people in Wenzhou will do anything to make money, including cheating, lying and breaking laws. I said most, not every one.

There are very old and dilapidated areas in Wenzhou. People still live and work in those areas. The real estate is way over priced, almost like the price in Shanghai. There are many Wenzhou people who go overseas. So they make money in foreign countries and buy property in Wenzhou. What surprised me is that Wenzhou has many valve manufacturing and metal machining companies including computer numerical controlled (CNC) machining and manufacturing.

The taxi from city to Wenzhou airport is RMB80, (current price as of Oct 2009). Sometimes they will ask RMB100 if you are a �foreigner� and took a taxi form the airport. The meter rate is about RMB60 but it is not turned on if going to the airport. The airport is not overly crowed as compared to Shanghai-Hongqiao. It is very convenient from Shanghai Hongqiao to Wenzhou, around RMB1,200 at the most. Try to get ticket early. Chinese airlines will begin slashing prices form 45 days of the fight. Flight lasts one hour gate to gate. When in Wenzhou, try to use the hired tricycle for not too long distance, both man and engine powered. They are cheaper than taxi and more convenient. They avoid traffic by taking short cut through alleys. Try to lift your buttock a little when it hits a bump on the road. The minimum charge is RMB5.00 for a trip. Most taxi drivers in Wenzhou are from Anhui province or other counties in Zhejiang.

The food in Wenzhou is lousy. They don�t taste good with very small amount of meat. It is a far cry in comparison to big cities like Shanghai and Hangzhou. Also it could get very expensive. Try some �coffee shops�. The food is acceptable and not too expensive. You always can have a private room for very little premium. Eating in public areas tends to be noisy. They usually talk loud and yell when on cell phone. Don�t try steaks in China. The beef in China is absolutely no good.

Don�t try to shop in Wenzhou. The choices are limited. For up scale shops, they are more expensive than in USA (this is the case in China). There are many smaller and large supermarkets in Wenzhou. I usually neighborhood markets. For large ones, I go to subsidiary of Walmart (Trust Mart stores), Chinese name �How Yu Do� (good and plentiful). There are two in Wenzhou. The bigger one is located under and inside the Athletic Stadium.

Many Wenzhou people are superstitious. They go to fortune tellers. They like to spend money during wedding process. One has to give dowry to the future wife when you are engaged, in the form of money and gold jewelries. They said this is unique perhaps in China. At the wedding, the waste money on banquets. Each table can go as high as RMB10,000 or higher. The guests usually have to give gift minimum RMB2,000 each family. Sometimes the newly wed does not make back enough. Then they have to borrow and work to pay back later. However, if the parents are rich, it will all paid by the parents. As in China, every body has to give gifts everywhere not too small amount. They even give gift to kindergarten teachers, about RMB2,000 each year. Otherwise your child will be sat at the back.

Back from Wenzhou.

This has been eye opening for us. A true Chinese city.

Not fair to compare to Beijing, Shanghai or Hong Kong but it is definietly a few years behind these cities.

Food is great, weather was fantastic and overall good experience.

Traffic was scary, frightning and chaotic. The worst we have ever seen. Uncomprarably bad. The week we spent there saw 5 accidents, 2 of which we saw bodies fly over the front end! If we commit to Wenzhou, we also will commit to NOT driving, scooter or bicycle. Buses were pretty good. Clean and often enough to make it convienent.

As other posters mentioned, western influence was limited to McDonalds, KFC, Pizza Hut and Papa Johns. No Walmart, Carrafour but there was a Trustmart which is a little sister version of Walmart.

Rent prices are very expensive. Not much different we found than Shanghai or Taipei for what you get for your yuen but you can find decent housing.

I think Wenzhou is a tad more inconvienent that other cities but it is a happening city. We are not adverse to the idea now that we have been here to check things out.

Have to make a decision by month end.