Superguy

This hit Boing Boing and needless to say, the TSA didn't get a warm reception there.

Blogdad Bob showed up over there to say "hey, it wasn't us" and TSA created a Mythbuster on its website.

TSA has no shame.

I liked a couple of the responses after Blogdad Bob showed up"

But hey, it's just a select few at PV and nuts on FT that hate TSA, right?

giblet

The NY Times had a really interesting editorial about this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/15/opinion/15sat3.html


This woeful experience is far too common, despite repeated commitments from airlines and government to protect, not abuse, passengers. According to the latest federal statistics, passengers aboard 278 planes suffered tarmac delays of three hours or more in June alone. The best redress for the nonfliers of 2816 is to demand approval of the Airline Passengers Bill of Rights that has been stalled in Congress in the face of industry opposition.

greentips

This is about costs. No other answer. CO/XJ did not have gate service at RST. Signature is always pleased to assist aircraft (well, with the possible exception at DET) for their usual outrageous ramp fees. The fact that DL and RST airport management offered a gate (presumably for an interline charge) and CO/XJ Ops refused brings this matter directly onto their head.

My thoughts: A good lawyer should file a criminal complaint against the Captain and the FO for unlawful detainment or whatever MN statute is applicable. A civil lawsuit should also be filed against the Cpt and FO and CO and XJ, perhaps separate suits and let the defendants decide which should be consolidated.

Finally, a formal complaint should be filed with the FAA/Principle Ops Inspector for the airline. The charge against the captain and the dispatcher should be the usual and customary FAA catchall when anything goes wrong: Careless and reckless operation. By failing to make proper judgement decisions, the captain endangered or potentially endangered the health and welfare of the pax. If the POI doesn't want the enforcement action,then file the complaint directly with the NTSB ALJ.

----
Everyone should own a cell phone. And their own airplane.

danielonn

I would have opened the Emergency Exit and tell everyone to come this way out of the plane and then call 911 to tell them the situation and how they are kidnapping us. Remember the Emergency Exit is also used for situations such as these when the jet is smelly and there is no food hint Diabetic Emergency, no toilets etc and babies onboard. No heat etc.

If the FAA tried to sue me I would say well we could have died and this emergency was just as bad as the Hudson river landing.

MikeMpls

Call 911 first. There's a good chance they'll evacuate the plane as they did with the Comair jet at JFK.

Evacuations often result in passenger injuries. Part of a pilot's preparation for a planned evacuation is lowering the flaps to facilitate passengers' movement over them, and those preparations probably weren't done in this case.

Black Adder

I remember sort of the same situation back when I was a truck driver. Delivering into grocery warehouses can be quite a long process and I had been sitting in one in Memphis for about 6 hours or so when another driver who'd been there even longer wanted to just leave his trailer in the door and bobtail out to get something to eat. The security people told him it was againt company policy to leave before the unloading process was complete and that he couldn't leave so he called 911 on his cellphone and told them he was being held against his will. A local cop showed up and had to explain to the security guards that unless they wanted to be charged with kidnapping, they had to let anyone out who wanted to go. We were let out. In the end I was there 13 hours.

jpsboo

I agree this captain let this situation go on hours too long. Should have got those people off of there. The pilots I've flown with in an extended "creeping" delay situation have always come through, made a decision, and avoided anything like this.

However, I think any lawsuits should be directed at CO and XE, NOT the pilots. "Captain's Authority" has eroded so much it's ridiculous. You know when you board your flight and it's stifling hot? (or freezing cold in the winter?). The cockpit knows that. They hate it, too. They can't get the air going because the company tells them not to, to save money. Even when we are all passing out in back. (or freezing our tushes off). That's just an example off the top of my head because I deal with it every day. The point is every thing they do that costs money-- Heads will roll!! I should have included the first part of greentips post. He's exactly right. It's ALL about money.

I'm NOT excusing the captain. But I don't even know the whole story. I'm just saying look at the AIRLINES, more so than the individuals.



oh please! I've lost count of how many posters brag about how they would "pop that emergency door"! LOL! Anonymous Internet bravado. Although I was talking to my husband the other day about how, if I was a FA on a flight like that and a pax mentioned going out the door... how could I convey "go for it!" without actually condoning it?? Hmmm... Have to keep thinking on that one! But I'd say definitely claim panic attack, claustrophobia, any number of things that would require medical personnel to come to the plane to get you (and everyone else!) off!

Boggie Dog

The Captain of the aircraft is the final authority for any actions taken on that aircraft. They are responsible and should be held accountable for their actions, or lack of action, in cases like this.

The company may influence what the Captain does but responsibility does not shift.

harpodamann

While the meek shall inherit the Earth, they shall be led to the slaughter by the airlines !!! Stand Tall, be heard, REVOLT !!! The revolution begins NOW

greentips

Precisely correct. When I was a young pup pilot flying freight, I was ordered to take a trip that was unsafe. I told the dispatcher that the weather was below departure minimums and we couldn't launch. I was fired that night and the pilot that took the flight ran out of gas and crashed looking for an airport he could land at. The Feds shut down the company.

If I had let the company dictate to me my safety margins and relinquished my authority as captain, it would have been me. Better alive and fired than hired and cooked.

The Cpt. was responsible for the safety and welfare of the aircraft and pax. First and foremost. But, when you're flying for the commuters, new in the seat, with ambitions for moving to the majors, the fear of retaliation and loss of job, especially in this economy is front and center in every working pilot's mind.

jpsboo

Absolutely the Captain is the final authority on the aircraft! I think that Express capt was a wuss. However, I used some of your quotes (out of context) just to highlight the constant pressure from company bigwigs.

I still say you'd get more results by going after the airlines, period. Does that make sense? JMO

knotyeagle

I'd be haunting the Chief Pilot and dispatcher daily after the crash, twice per day after the POI revokes the air carrier certificate. Goading every moment of it. Revenge does have its place with former employers.

Trollkiller

The revolution started last week, you are late.

greentips

It does make sense, but the problem becomes what is the wiggle room? The company will always point to the Captain as the ultimate responsibility, using that hedge to dodge. It's kind of like cornering jello. Unless you have every path covered, the jello wins. Unless the crew is willing to stand up and say, I couldn't park it because the company wouldn't pay for the gate, it'll come back to them one way or another. The key is to convince the flight crews that the pain of defying the company (and possibly having to find a new job as a TSA screener) is less than the pain of keeping the pax in misery, they will act in their own best interests. Unfortunately, most of these crews are young, relatively inexperienced, not strongly backed by their unions, building time until an opening happens with the majors, and a family to support. They are there because they love flying, are generally pretty good at it or they would have given up long ago and are pursuing a dream. The trick is to convince them that doing the right thing (which isn't necessarily the company thing) is the best thing for themselves and their career.

I don't know how to do that. By the time they reach retirement age, and know this, it's too late.

n4zhg

And what is the company going to do when the Captain is taken off his aircraft in handcuffs by the local police after the entire passenger list prefers charges?