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Old Jun 13, 2008 | 4:37 pm
  #76  
 
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A TSO has never put hands on a passenger at my airport that I am aware of. If my assumption is correct, and LEOs are supposed to be within 1 minute of the checkpoint, then I assume one would have followed Aukai until LEOs could get on scene (or catch up), and based on the statements by the TSOs, I (personally) would have conducted a stop on Aukai and found out what it was he was refusing to produce out of his pocket. Aukai's suspicious behavior/actions + the statements by TSA about the bulge in his pocket = PC to stop/search.

Even if LEOs are further away, I have found in past cases that a TSA employee keeps his/her distance from the individual and follows them (while keeping constant observation) until LEOs can arrive and handle the situation.
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 6:49 am
  #77  
 
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Originally Posted by law dawg
It would seem that, should a TSO not be able to physically restrain someone from leaving, then the "not free to leave" part is a toothless provision. But again, I've not seen this put to the actual test yet.

Or at least I'm unaware of such.
The screeners can presumably maintain possession of the passenger's bag until such time as it is cleared (SIR, DON'T TOUCH THAT !).

So the situation would be if a passenger tried to exit back to landside without the bag, can the screeners physically restrain him/her. I would sincerely hope the answer is NO, but who would leave their bag or other stuff behind simply to flee ?
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 6:57 am
  #78  
 
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Originally Posted by SgtScott31
True, the courts may not always see this way, and each ruling will obviously take all the facts of each incident into consideration before they make another decision, whether reaffirming Aukai, or deciding new precedent. If a new case comes about, I will be happy to discuss it with you, whether it is for or against my stance on the issue.
http://cases.justia.com/us-court-of-appeals/F2/638/892/
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 7:06 am
  #79  
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How much compensation is he due from the airline?
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 9:25 am
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That is an interesting case. Since this involved a narcotics stop (even in 1979), they probably had intel on the defendant prior to coming to the airport. It's interesting that the judges felt that the encounter was an "illegal" seizure before Lara was even asked to go downstairs. It seemed consensual to me, but there were quite a few facts left out (as the court mentioned). Each state's court has various articulatable facts as to what constitutes a seizure. I bet in this day and age, it may have been looked at as a consensual encounter, but that obviously we will never know.

The basis of the lower court's decision to deny the suppression of the cocaine was the simple fact that they felt that Lara had abandoned the bag when he left with the agents (by claiming it was not his), regardless of the agent's "illegal" seizure of Lara. The appellate court felt that the abandonment was part of the "illegal" seizure and remanded the decision back to the lower courts. This case does not have much to do with the checkpoint, but it is amazing that the court felt the mere presence of law enforcement constituted a seizure.
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 9:30 am
  #81  
 
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Originally Posted by Wally Bird
The screeners can presumably maintain possession of the passenger's bag until such time as it is cleared (SIR, DON'T TOUCH THAT !).

So the situation would be if a passenger tried to exit back to landside without the bag, can the screeners physically restrain him/her. I would sincerely hope the answer is NO, but who would leave their bag or other stuff behind simply to flee ?
That is the reason why we would be catching up to the individual pretty quickly and detaining him. I do not believe TSOs would physically put their hands on him. We had a similar situation occur at BNA. The individual fled back out of the checkpoint upon questioning by TSOs (or he knew LEOs were coming) and was caught in the parking lot outside of the main terminal. He was definitely involved in narcotics, but there was not enough to indict him. He was subsequently arrested for a couple of local charges (disorderly conduct, resist stop/frisk/halt).
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 9:31 am
  #82  
 
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Originally Posted by skylady
How much compensation is he due from the airline?
Who?
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 9:46 am
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Wally Bird
So the situation would be if a passenger tried to exit back to landside without the bag, can the screeners physically restrain him/her. I would sincerely hope the answer is NO, but who would leave their bag or other stuff behind simply to flee ?
No! TSO's are NOT allowed to physically detain anyone. In a situation like this, a TSO would be assigned to follow the passenger until a LEO could get there. But NO touching is allowed.
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 12:52 pm
  #84  
 
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Originally Posted by SgtScott31
That is an interesting case. Since this involved a narcotics stop (even in 1979), they probably had intel on the defendant prior to coming to the airport. It's interesting that the judges felt that the encounter was an "illegal" seizure before Lara was even asked to go downstairs. It seemed consensual to me, but there were quite a few facts left out (as the court mentioned). Each state's court has various articulatable facts as to what constitutes a seizure. I bet in this day and age, it may have been looked at as a consensual encounter, but that obviously we will never know.

The basis of the lower court's decision to deny the suppression of the cocaine was the simple fact that they felt that Lara had abandoned the bag when he left with the agents (by claiming it was not his), regardless of the agent's "illegal" seizure of Lara. The appellate court felt that the abandonment was part of the "illegal" seizure and remanded the decision back to the lower courts. This case does not have much to do with the checkpoint, but it is amazing that the court felt the mere presence of law enforcement constituted a seizure.
It generally means what "presence" is defined as. Pretty much any time a person feels they're not free to leave it can be construed as a seizure.
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 2:14 pm
  #85  
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Originally Posted by law dawg
They did have cause, as BS as it was. A violation of law was discovered while performing an administrative search. They can detain the person while LEOs respond and then turn over the evidence to the responding LEOs. The precedent is quite clear.
Technically, they had not discovered a violation of the law; rather, they had a reasonable, articulable suspicion that a violation had occurred or was about to occur allowing for the detention. The police would have to determine if probable cause existed before a making an arrest. This would than leave determining that a violation of law had occurred as an issue of fact and law for a judge and/or jury.

That said, Would you please provide a cite to the precedent? (I'm not challenging it exists, just want to read ..)
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 2:17 pm
  #86  
 
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Originally Posted by JMR
Would you please provide a cite top the precedent? (I'm not challenging it exists ..)
Keep reading. After that post it became clear as mud.
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 2:36 pm
  #87  
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Originally Posted by FWAAA
As bocastephen has alluded, the holding of this case had nothing to do with whether screeners could physically detain passengers. Just another criminal seeking to supress evidence of a search he claims was unreasonable because he said he wanted to terminate the search. The screeners told the criminal he couldn't leave - they didn't forcibly restrain him.

Do you have a citation where the holding concerned detention by screeners?
FWIW: The most frightening sentence from that case is the following:

The existence and scope of implied consent must be examined in light of all the circumstances, and such circumstances—and correlated societal expectations—may change over time.
In other words: the more scared we are, the more rights we may deny.

Closely related is the notion that even where the primary screening does not "affirmatively reveal anything suspicious," a secondary is still permitted simply because notwithstanding the none discovery, the primary did not "rule out every possibility of dangerous contents."

Following this argument, even a full rectal examination would be considered to have been impliedly consented to, nothing short of a full rectal can rule out no dangerous contents are hidden within one's bum. They court may make some overtures of protecting against further, more intrusive, examinations, but as it noted itself, standards "change over time." In effect, the court was greasing the skids for the slippery slope, not erecting the barricades one expects from the judiciary.

Is this really the America we want?

As AUKAI addresses consent for search in the contect of evidence suppression, and as the OP's friend consented and completed to the search, it would seem logical at this point he could have left for steetside and TSA would be powerless to stop him. As noted by others, it could inform LEO and they could take actions consistent with their powers.

The more interesting questions, I ask in ignorance, is under what conditions may TSA deny access to the secure side of the airport. (For this questions, I treat the search area as a DMZ of sorts.)

Last edited by JMR; Jun 14, 2008 at 3:08 pm
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 2:37 pm
  #88  
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Originally Posted by law dawg
Keep reading. After that post it became clear as mud.
Got it, thanks.

UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee,
v.
Daniel Kuualoha AUKAI, Defendant-Appellant.

440 F.3d 1168

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/....04-10226.html
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 3:03 pm
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Deeg
Many federal law enforcement agencies have policies on when their employees are allowed to use state law for "citizen's arrests" and still be considered within the scope of their duties. In fact, federal agents occasionally have to rely on such laws to make non-federal arrests in states which do not grant them peace officer status.

So...I can't address whether they are credible or permissible. But they do happen. And they are encouraged by the federal government under certain circumstances.
Deeghas provided us the correct answer. A "citizen's arrest" is made by someone without official police power to arrest. It's use and restrictions are limited by jurisdiction, as are the consequences of a bad-faith or unreasonable execution of said arrest. Consult your local lawyer.
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Old Jun 14, 2008 | 3:11 pm
  #90  
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Originally Posted by ND Sol
If discovered outside the bounds of an administrative search, then I would agree. Otherwise, absolutely not. Our rights under the Constitution protect us from unreasonable searches. As such, if it is an unreasonable search, then everything that is gained from that search may not be used in a trial, even if that means the accused gets away with murder. That is a basic tenet of our society that many still do not appreciate.

An administrative search is non-consensual in nature and as such is only permitted in very limited circumstances so that it is not unreasonable. The courts have said that you can only search for the items directly related to the purpose of the administrative search. So if the search is trying to see if you have an elephant, the government agent can't search your wallet since an elephant can't be hidden in it. Anything incidental to a proper search may be seized even if unrelated to the search.

So if a TSO sees a potential prohibited item via the x-ray and calls for a bag search and then the bag search discovers pounds of illegal drugs, then that would be okay. However, if the TSO just sees pounds of illegal drugs and no prohibited items, then a bag search is not proper (however, in reality, a TSO can almost always say the he saw something that might be a prohibited item). Ever wonder why TSO's are not given any training in the identification of illegal drugs? Because then the administrative search may not be valid if drugs were found.

And welcome, Scots_Al!
Yes, but the courts have consistently rules these are CONSENTED searches. I would join you in arguing that is nonsense, but that is the law of the land nonetheless.
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