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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Question for the TSA & LEOs on the Board (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/832848-question-tsa-leos-board.html)

abmj-jr Jun 10, 2008 9:46 am


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 9855454)
... Of course, no surprise there either, and not the first time FAT has featured in this forum.

I'm going to call BS on this one. It is obvious that the OP is referring to FAT, yes. They are normally just about the most laid-back, easiest-to-deal-with group I see in dozens of screenings around the world each year. I suspect the individual in the op may have contributed to his problems with attitude - reference the "tub-stacking ***" remark. I agree with lawdawg. This was a pretty minor problem that escalated for reasons we do not know.

NY-FLA Jun 10, 2008 9:59 am


Originally Posted by law dawg (Post 9855565)
They did have cause, as BS as it was. A violation of law was discovered while performing an administrative search. They can detain the person while LEOs respond and then turn over the evidence to the responding LEOs. The precedent is quite clear.

News to me! TSA can detain? (I don't see this as any different from claiming TSA can arrest.) I don't know how they could even prevent uncleared entry into the "sterile" area. Always thought the best TSA could do was track such entrants for LEO's to arrest.
TSO's can "Detain while LEOs respond?" Your basis for this claim is?

bocastephen Jun 10, 2008 10:11 am


Originally Posted by law dawg (Post 9855565)
They did have cause, as BS as it was. A violation of law was discovered while performing an administrative search. They can detain the person while LEOs respond and then turn over the evidence to the responding LEOs. The precedent is quite clear.

A violation of the law which was completely outside their jurisdiction as well as the local police. They had no cause to detain - and quite frankly, let's not get away from the point that they cannot detain anyone anyway. If they used any force or coercion to keep the person from leaving the checkpoint, they are guilty of a crime - kidnapping or unlawful confinement come to mind.

sammy0623 Jun 10, 2008 10:18 am


Originally Posted by law dawg (Post 9855565)
They did have cause, as BS as it was. A violation of law was discovered while performing an administrative search. They can detain the person while LEOs respond and then turn over the evidence to the responding LEOs. The precedent is quite clear.

How did they know he was underage? They'd have to know he was 20 or under in order to be able to know they had a violation of the law (unless I missed it).

NoClu Jun 10, 2008 10:28 am

They likely knew his age by looking at his DL.

law dawg Jun 10, 2008 10:38 am


Originally Posted by sammy0623 (Post 9855837)
How did they know he was underage? They'd have to know he was 20 or under in order to be able to know they had a violation of the law (unless I missed it).

Don't know how, but the OP stated it and I took them at their word.

law dawg Jun 10, 2008 10:43 am


Originally Posted by bocastephen (Post 9855794)
A violation of the law which was completely outside their jurisdiction as well as the local police. They had no cause to detain - and quite frankly, let's not get away from the point that they cannot detain anyone anyway. If they used any force or coercion to keep the person from leaving the checkpoint, they are guilty of a crime - kidnapping or unlawful confinement come to mind.

http://vlex.com/vid/20254460

law dawg Jun 10, 2008 10:43 am


Originally Posted by NY-FLA (Post 9855741)
News to me! TSA can detain? (I don't see this as any different from claiming TSA can arrest.) I don't know how they could even prevent uncleared entry into the "sterile" area. Always thought the best TSA could do was track such entrants for LEO's to arrest.
TSO's can "Detain while LEOs respond?" Your basis for this claim is?

http://vlex.com/vid/20254460

If the passenger is "not free to leave," then what is he other than detained?

FWAAA Jun 10, 2008 10:47 am

I'm guessing the kid wasn't actually detained by anyone from the TSA. All they did was refuse to clear him to the sterile area and take their sweet time summoning the LEOs. The kid probably could have exited the checkpoint streetside rather than sit around waiting for LEOs, but he didn't.

oneofthosepeopleyouloveto hate Jun 10, 2008 10:52 am


The TSA took his picture and photocopied his DL and BP? Cee, OOTPYLTH, is this a normal practice?
It's not something a TSO would do, at least at the airports where I've worked. Perhaps a supe or LEO, but I'm not privy to their protocols.

It's unclear from the original post whether the PAX or TSA called for a LEO, so I'll withhold comment on the rest, except to ask: what eventually happened to the liquor?

BTW, any time we see liquids in a bag, we're supposed to call a bag search, so the TSOs were following proper procedure in that regard.

There's nothing in the SOP that requires us to report minors in possession of alcohol, however, so that's kind of a gray area! Would make for an interesting court case ...

I expect we'll see a ruling eventually that will define what the TSA can and cannot do when it discovers contraband that clearly isn't a threat to aviation safety.

bocastephen Jun 10, 2008 10:52 am


Originally Posted by law dawg (Post 9855968)
http://vlex.com/vid/20254460

If the passenger is "not free to leave," then what is he other than detained?

I read this case before, but what authority does the TSA posses to physically prevent someone from taking their items and leaving? If the police are not yet there, and someone picks up their bags and chooses to leave the checkpoint, the TSA does not have the right to physically block or touch the person, as they have no police authority.

Therefore, if you tried to leave and a screener grabbed you, then you could have that screener charged with assault and battery, no?

FWAAA Jun 10, 2008 11:02 am


Originally Posted by law dawg (Post 9855968)
http://vlex.com/vid/20254460

If the passenger is "not free to leave," then what is he other than detained?

As bocastephen has alluded, the holding of this case had nothing to do with whether screeners could physically detain passengers. Just another criminal seeking to supress evidence of a search he claims was unreasonable because he said he wanted to terminate the search. The screeners told the criminal he couldn't leave - they didn't forcibly restrain him.

Do you have a citation where the holding concerned detention by screeners?

Wally Bird Jun 10, 2008 11:05 am


Originally Posted by oneofthosepeopleyouloveto hate (Post 9856020)
I expect we'll see a ruling eventually that will define what the TSA can and cannot do when it discovers contraband that clearly isn't a threat to aviation safety.

A ruling by whom ? Several "incidental" possession cases have gone before various courts. I don't have the running count, but almost always the courts have upheld the discovery whether or not the defense has claimed the poisoned fruit doctrine. I do not believe any has been escalated to the SCOTUS though, which would be the definitive ruling. Not likely to be a favorable one to those of us who think the TSA has no business fishing at checkpoints.

civicmon Jun 10, 2008 11:06 am


Originally Posted by usa18dca (Post 9854156)
After the TSA took his picture of him, the BP and Drivers License they sent him on his way and he ultimately missed the flight and as he was exiting the security area he saw the TSA people go "oh he missed his flight...just perfect" then the other guy laughed...this is UNPROFESSIONAL and I told him to contact his local congressman and whine about how TSA is abusing their so called power.


What was the correct protocol in this situation? He wanted to know.

This is where it really crosses the line for me. That is totally unprofessional and I would not have walked out of there w/o talking to the duty manager for the TSA AND the airport. They need to stay professional and at times it can be tough (anyone who deals with the public can testify to that point) but laughing at the guy for missing his flight is wrong and makes the TSA look like HS dropout bullies. :td:

TSA is at fault for general incompetency for not calling the airport police any sooner. Plus, they should be responsible for his airfare to Vegas at the next available flight out at their expense. It shouldn't be their issue what he carries as long as it's legally allowed on the plane and not enforce the laws. Someone needs to tell the TSA that they're not cops.


Originally Posted by bocastephen (Post 9855304)
The TSA held the person there without any legal basis or right to do so - unless he was free to pass the checkpoint or leave the checkpoint, being held was a detention and it was illegal.

Not entirely, he did go through airport security but at no time was he under any sort of detainment order. If he threw his hands up and said "forget it" and left, he's legally free to do so, they can try and stop him but he walks towards the exit, their ability to do anything ends there. Police can do something but that's another story.

Plus, police can detain a suspect for up to 48hrs before pressing charges. Even though the TSA was wrong, the LEOs could have detained him for that period of time legally.

bocastephen Jun 10, 2008 11:09 am


Originally Posted by civicmon (Post 9856093)
...Plus, police can detain a suspect for up to 48hrs before pressing charges. Even though the TSA was wrong, the LEOs could have detained him for that period of time legally.

Maybe I missed this in an earlier discussion - but can you cite this? Either someone is under arrest or free to go. One or the other. If you're under arrest, you must be charged or let go.

Under what statute can the police hold someone for 48hrs without charging them? Is this is a state statute?


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