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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Do you ever try to PSYOP TSA? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/793666-do-you-ever-try-psyop-tsa.html)

PTravel Feb 24, 2008 1:33 pm

SPOT is, without question, the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. When I'm at an airport, I'm spending my time in the airline club room (do SPOTTERs get in there?) at the bar, maintaining the right degree of self-medication necessary for me to cope with my (now mild) flying phobia. I won't talk to anyone except, (1) my wife, if she's with me, or (2) someone who introduces themselves as an FTer (I have FT tags on my carryon). On the very rare occasion that I'll get into a conversation with a stranger, it's because they have some piece of computer hardware in which I'm interested and I may ask about it. If a BDO comes up to and tries to start a conversation, I will politely, but firmly, indicate that I'm not interested in anything more than the screwdriver sitting in front of me.

Does TSA really believe that a would-be terrorist wouldn't do exactly the same thing?

So what happens then? You call over LEO? You cause me to miss my flight? Searches at the WTMD may be considered Constitutional because of implied consent. Nothing in the Constitution compels me to talk to a BDO, and nothing in the Constitution allows you to detain me for refusing to do so.

Pure idiocy.

PhlyingRPh Feb 24, 2008 2:12 pm


Originally Posted by Andy1369 (Post 9299888)
etch5895, I'm curious also! As I'm deaf, if a "BDO SPOTTER" tried to stop me and talk to me, it'd cause a long delay, because s/he would have to grab a paper and pen, then ask me the question(s). It'd be a big waste of time because s/he wouldn't be able to analyze my expressions, since I'd be writing it on paper, and cause a bottleneck in line.

I just hope I don't ever run into one of those zealous SPOTTERS who won't take no for an answer, and if I point my hands to my ears, I'll be SSSSed because I can't answer the SPOTTER. If that does happen, I swear I'm going to sue TSA. I don't give a damn if "we can't sue the federal government." I'd be discriminated against due to a disability, and that is illegal. If I need to, I'll bring ACLU and the media into it, and raise a huge stink.

Any TSA people in here who knows for sure how SPOTTERS deal with deaf, mute, and other speech-impaired folks? I'm willing to bet in about 95-98% of cases, I'll just be waved on and forgetten. How would I deal with a SPOTTER who tries to talk to me, and won't take the "deaf gesture" as an answer? Just walk on ahead?


You might recall the outrage committed against a two deaf gentleman who were conversing in ISL at the gate a few weeks after 9/11. The racists (other passengers) seated in the area automatically assumed the gentlemen were terrorists signing secret information to one another. The authorities were called and of course once that happened, these fellows spent a few nights in jail and were interrogated mercilessly. Personally, it's not really the TSA I worry about - most of them are fair, follow their procedures well and are polite to their customers. It's the ignorance, lack of education and bigotry of the flying american public that I consider to be a threat.

Spiff Feb 24, 2008 5:32 pm


Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 9306339)
So what happens then? You call over LEO? You cause me to miss my flight? Searches at the WTMD may be considered Constitutional because of implied consent. Nothing in the Constitution compels me to talk to a BDO, and nothing in the Constitution allows you to detain me for refusing to do so.

Pure idiocy.

I don't talk to TSA any more. Ever since last the 100% Shoe Carnival came to town, I've followed Mom's advice: "If you don't have anything nice to say to someone, say nothing."

I have nothing nice to say to anyone with a TSA clown suit on. Kind words do not exist for people who choose to harass others in exchange for a paycheck. Therefore, I say nothing.

etch5895 Feb 24, 2008 11:22 pm


Originally Posted by tmspa (Post 9300413)
Refusing to talk is your choice. I can't really speak to procedure beyond that.

I have had someone who is deaf. I happen to know some TSOs and BDOs who sign, so it made my life a lot easier.

OK. I understand that. Now, if someone chooses to exercise their right to not talk to strange people at the airport who strike up conversation, does the BDO have the legal authority to keep them from flying or to call an actual LEO over and compel them to speak? On another note, would the LEO have the authority to detain someone for refusing to answer the BDOs questions? I suppose the officers could legally do so citing Hiibal, but that is a pretty lousy way of treating people who just wish to be left the hell alone.

For me it is a personal choice. I am quite introverted and I just don't like talking to strangers if I don't have to. I especially don't like talking to nosy strangers who are asking me about my travel plans/habits and have the power to make my life miserable. I would hope that any LEO worth his/her salt would tell a BDO to go bugger off if they tried to get them to detain someone for merely not answering any questions. One reason I've never visited Israel is that I don't feel like being treated like a criminal just for showing up to a flight. God help us if this is what America is turning into. Maybe it is just a coincidence that the Secretary of Homeland Security holds Israeli citizenship, and he wants to turn all US airports into mini TLVs.

Lets hope someone challenges this nonsense in court, and that this ridiculous program gets dismembered and uncerimoniously flushed down the toilet.

tmspa Feb 24, 2008 11:38 pm


Originally Posted by etch5895 (Post 9308681)
OK. I understand that. Now, if someone chooses to exercise their right to not talk to strange people at the airport who strike up conversation, does the BDO have the legal authority to keep them from flying or to call an actual LEO over and compel them to speak? On another note, would the LEO have the authority to detain someone for refusing to answer the BDOs questions? I suppose the officers could legally do so citing Hiibal, but that is a pretty lousy way of treating people who just wish to be left the hell alone.

For me it is a personal choice. I am quite introverted and I just don't like talking to strangers if I don't have to. I especially don't like talking to nosy strangers who are asking me about my travel plans/habits and have the power to make my life miserable. I would hope that any LEO worth his/her salt would tell a BDO to go bugger off if they tried to get them to detain someone for merely not answering any questions. One reason I've never visited Israel is that I don't feel like being treated like a criminal just for showing up to a flight. God help us if this is what America is turning into. Maybe it is just a coincidence that the Secretary of Homeland Security holds Israeli citizenship, and he wants to turn all US airports into mini TLVs.

Lets hope someone challenges this nonsense in court, and that this ridiculous program gets dismembered and uncerimoniously flushed down the toilet.

I have happened upon a handful of people (especially lawyers) who choose not to say anything. As I said, this is your choice. The easy thing for both parties involved would be for you to explain to me the reason you don't want to talk. (I'm good at picking up on signals of deceit, so don't lie) :). This often explains to me why you may have been exhibiting signs of stress, in the first place.

As a side note, lawyers and people with a chip on their shoulder often exhibit more signs of stress and fear than most. I think it may be that they are trying too hard to hide their contempt and frustration and instead it is projected in involuntary, physical responses.

MrAndy1369 Feb 25, 2008 12:04 am

You have a point - but why should it even be your business? We're checked for dangerous items, and as long as we don't have anything dangerous on us, then why do you need to know our personal business? Especially for a domestic flight.

(Sorry if I seem rude or anything, just asking you for your perspective as you're from TSA.)


Originally Posted by tmspa (Post 9308742)
I have happened upon a handful of people (especially lawyers) who choose not to say anything. As I said, this is your choice. The easy thing for both parties involved would be for you to explain to me the reason you don't want to talk. (I'm good at picking up on signals of deceit, so don't lie) :). This often explains to me why you may have been exhibiting signs of stress, in the first place.

As a side note, lawyers and people with a chip on their shoulder often exhibit more signs of stress and fear than most. I think it may be that they are trying too hard to hide their contempt and frustration and instead it is projected in involuntary, physical responses.


tmspa Feb 25, 2008 5:08 am


Originally Posted by Andy1369 (Post 9308823)
You have a point - but why should it even be your business? We're checked for dangerous items, and as long as we don't have anything dangerous on us, then why do you need to know our personal business? Especially for a domestic flight.

(Sorry if I seem rude or anything, just asking you for your perspective as you're from TSA.)

It is important to understand someone's story when they are being screened due to heightened behavioral cues, regardless of destination. Any plane can be brought down in the U.S., whether it is a domestic flight or not.

Even though dangerous item are not present, other items that don't fit the person or their story might be. Also, even if there are not explosives or other suspicious items, what is their intent? It has been long discussed that one person could easily create a diversion or they could be covertly traveling with someone who is carrying the dangerous items.

Finally, there is always a reason that they are feeling stressed, legitimate or not. As several FTers have told me, if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Give the TSO your story, be as brief as you want while still conveying your point, and be truthful. Simple, minimal effort, and it shouldn't take much longer than any other additional screening might take you.

T-the-B Feb 25, 2008 6:54 am


Originally Posted by tmspa (Post 9309451)
. . . Give the TSO your story, be as brief as you want while still conveying your point, and be truthful. Simple, minimal effort, and it shouldn't take much longer than any other additional screening might take you.

I've got a great mental image of how that would play out:

Spotter: "Hello, total stranger. How are you today?"

Me: "I'm pretty stressed out. Having to put up with the sham they call security always aggravates me when I travel."

Spotter (whips out radio): "I need some backup here we've got another one who needs to be taught a lesson in proper respect."

The only thing missing would be the da-da-da-dum da-da-da-dum da-da-da-dum-dum-dum-da-dum "Barney Fife" theme music playing over the airport speakers.

On TV it would be funny; in real life not so much.

RSSrsvp Feb 25, 2008 7:23 am


Originally Posted by Spiff (Post 9307341)
I don't talk to TSA any more. Ever since last the 100% Shoe Carnival came to town, I've followed Mom's advice: "If you don't have anything nice to say to someone, say nothing."

My mother instructed me to never speak to strangers. IMHO, these BDO's are definitely strange!

polonius Feb 25, 2008 8:03 am


Originally Posted by tmspa (Post 9304212)
There is no threat implied, sorry if it could be perceived that way.

No one would be penalized for not being able to speak. As I stated earlier, I would exhaust all resources available to me to effectively communicate with someone.

So now you seem to be implying that whilst no one would be "penalised" for being unable to speak, they would be "penalised" for exercising constitutionally protected rights by choosing not to speak even though they are capable of it.

Spiff Feb 25, 2008 8:08 am


Originally Posted by RSSrsvp (Post 9309896)
My mother instructed me to never speak to strangers. IMHO, these BDO's are definitely strange!

These days, it's pretty much 2 words for any TSA employee and those two words are not "happy birthday". Therefore, I keep those two words to myself, providing I'm not provoked outside the checkpoint.

polonius Feb 25, 2008 8:09 am


Originally Posted by tmspa (Post 9309451)
It is important to understand someone's story when they are being screened due to heightened behavioral cues, regardless of destination. Any plane can be brought down in the U.S., whether it is a domestic flight or not.

Even though dangerous item are not present, other items that don't fit the person or their story might be. Also, even if there are not explosives or other suspicious items, what is their intent? It has been long discussed that one person could easily create a diversion or they could be covertly traveling with someone who is carrying the dangerous items.

Finally, there is always a reason that they are feeling stressed, legitimate or not. As several FTers have told me, if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Give the TSO your story, be as brief as you want while still conveying your point, and be truthful. Simple, minimal effort, and it shouldn't take much longer than any other additional screening might take you.

You appear to suggest that those who decline to speak to you have less right to an expeditious transit through the airport than those who do choose to co-operate. As for those of us who have done nothing wrong having "nothing to worry about," somehow I don't think Abdualla Higazy, Maher Arar or Khalid El-Masri would agree, unless you believe that kidapping, torture, being held incommunicado, and refused the opportunity to seek redress are "nothing to worry about". Most of us worry about the DHS every single day, and hope the day comes when it is shut down and all those responsible are put on trial, convicted and imprisoned comes soon.

swei0009 Feb 25, 2008 8:11 am


Originally Posted by tmspa (Post 9309451)
IAs several FTers have told me, if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about.

I have a whole lot of dead relatives who believed that.


Originally Posted by tmspa (Post 9309451)
Give the TSO your story, be as brief as you want while still conveying your point, and be truthful. Simple, minimal effort, and it shouldn't take much longer than any other additional screening might take you.

I will comply with lawful instructions at the checkpoint. Away from the checkpoint you are just some airport creep who is bugging me. And I do not have to talk to airport creeps.

bocastephen Feb 25, 2008 9:02 am


Originally Posted by tmspa (Post 9309451)
...As several FTers have told me, if you haven't done anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Give the TSO your story, be as brief as you want while still conveying your point, and be truthful. Simple, minimal effort, and it shouldn't take much longer than any other additional screening might take you.

Those 'several' FTers are wrong. How about this: you ask me questions, I say it's none of your business, you try and hold me, then I demand your manager calls my airline GSC, who then clears me through the checkpoint (with or without your objection), after we speak privately.

I will speak to the GSC, as they represent the owners of the property and equipment I am using, but I am under no obligation to answer TSA questions, nor will I.

Just screen my bag and stop trying to pretend your agency knows what it's doing - a 4hr class to learn behavior profiling is so beyond laughable, it would be like teaching a bunch of 4th graders calculus and physics and expecting them to engineer our next Mars landing.

etch5895 Feb 25, 2008 9:15 am


Originally Posted by tmspa (Post 9309451)
It is important to understand someone's story when they are being screened due to heightened behavioral cues, regardless of destination. Any plane can be brought down in the U.S., whether it is a domestic flight or not.

Not if the airline invests in a locking metal grate to seal the flight deck area off from the rest of the aircraft, and if the pilots land the plane instead of giving in to hijacker demands. A plane that lands safely with a cabin full of dead hostages is better than a plane slammed into a building in my book.

Oh, that and screening all cargo for explosives.

Now, the question still remains...can the BDO lawfully detain someone (either on their own or with law enforcement help) without probable cause that a crime is being or has been committed? Furthermore, if they can, will they be held responsible for all costs that the innocent traveler incurs due to the unplanned detention (non-refundable plane tickets, hotel rooms, etc...)?


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