Bart

Deleted

etch5895

Note to all: Please do not assume that sticking the military in the airports to work the security checkpoints is a good idea.

1) It will be horribly expensive to house all these folks at airport hotels while they are doing jobs that other people are already trained to do.

2) The military is stretched thin enough right now without having to assume duties at airports.

3) In the event of a catch, posse comitatus (sp) laws would prohibit them from acting in a law enforcement capacity.

4) With the anti-TSA stuff I see on this thread, how long would it be before people starting hating our Soldiers, as well.

5) What happens when a US Soldier at the TSA checkpoint misreads someone's intentions and shoots and kills an American at the airport? How about a visiting foreigner? Is the public ready to accept something like this?

Let's not reinvent the wheel here. With as much time as our Soldiers already spend away from home, a 4-6 month rotation at JFK airport is NOT something that would be looked forward to.

Bart

Deleted

boondoggie

So Bart, is that correct? Or can the xray machines spot the liquids to then go to EDT?

And why is Spiff arguing for a 5 hour wait at the line? Considering how upset he is about taking off his shoes, imagine standing in line for 5 hours.

Bart

Deleted

boondoggie

Too bad we can't make you king for a day, but at the rate government and other large orgarnizations work, it shouldn't surprise us that it's taking some time to put the best policy into place. I would expect that what you propose will end up being what they do -- we're just seeing the wheels turn slowly, and in the meantime, they probably felt the liquids ban was the only option they could implement overnight.

Superguy

DHS has already said x-raying won't do jack to ID shoes. So there's no sense in the shoe carnival.

If we have puffers, shoes will be screened for explosives anyway.

So the threat isn't being ignored. It's just not over emphasized like it is now.

Spiff

Over-emphasized?

It's abject stupidity.

The Shoe Carnival might detect a really, really sloppily made shoe bomb if the drone on the x-ray is actually alert enough to notice the obviously-altered shoes. Red team tests and screener failure of said tests give me no confidence that such a discovery would occur.

However, the puffer/ETD will very likely detect even the most carefully designed shoe bombs.

Comrade Hawley mandates the Shoe Carnival. What a disgusting imbecile who has no clue whatsoever about airport security. He really is just making it up as he goes along and it's time we send this despicable cretin packing and severely punish him on the way out.

SDF_Traveler

One word: bureaucracy - it needs to be eliminated.

One Word: bureaucracy

The hands of the private companies are tied by the bureaucracy and poor leadership of the TSA.

There are some good front line employees with the TSA. I want to get rid of the TSA as a whole government agency. The TSA as an organization is a big mess. Complete lack of leadership and huge bureaucracy.

Even if leadership is improved, the TSA will never work properly because of the bureaucracy.

Security pre 9/11 was carried out by unprofessional, minimum wage screeners - many that didn't even speak English.

Lets go outside of the United States for a minute and lets look at security as it is done in Australia as well as some Asian airports. As a general rule, you'll find screening is highly professional and it's obvious the security employees either like their jobs or they believe in customer service.

Case in point: I got selected for a random ETD swabing at PER. Screener asked for my surname. Here in the states I'd probably be barked at to produce identification. You don't have to present identification to go through domestic checkpoints in Australia - in fact meeters and greeters are welcome airside.

They don't have carnival barkers yelling at the checkpoints and all passengers are treated with respect and dignity. It's civilised.

Remove the TSA bureaucracy and poor leadership. How much money do you think that'll free up? After the bureaucracy you'll likely also realize cost savings from better use of staffing. An incredible amount of money has been wasted and continues to be wasted - look at some of the GAO reports.

The puffer portals, between what I've experienced, and read on paper, seem to provide another layer of security. They may not be the fastest, but from what I've seen on paper they seem to be worthwhile from a risk management standpoint if you can get a percentage of passengers through them.

I've seen liquid screening devices in use in Japan. However, this liquid ban is all reactionary, it's based on fear and no common sense is being applied.

There are also devices in development which can detect the chemical compisition of items by reading gamma-rays. There's a lot of interesting products out there; they just need to be pushed out of the lab and into real use.

The SSSS system as it exists is a joke, but in a system where you manage risk I think it's worth taking a closer look at some people on a random basis. It wouldn't be printed on the boarding pass, the passenger would find out at the checkpoint.

In Australia not all passengers get ETD swabbed - they're pulled at random. What's wrong with pulling a few passengers at random for an ETD swab and a look at the carry-on? We're not talking about full SSSS treatment as it is, just getting a few more ETD's done at random and a look into the carry-on with ETD.

I believe a threat exists, but the threat is minimal at best. A specific group of shoes are going to set off the metal detector because of metal shanks. Shoes could potentially be used to hide other items, esp. larger / oversized shoes.

If I had to come up with a shoe profile, it would be limited at best. Perhaps I should have been more clear when I stated that.

Have I? Again, perhaps I should have been more clear. Whats wrong using risk management to select people for ETD swabs and to look in their carry-on and ETD that as well? Random secondary doesn't have to mean the full backrub, pat down, and wanding. The person has already sucessfully passed the WTMD, but unless the passenger has been through a puffer, random trace detection checks for explosives are a valuable tool. Explosives are a credible threat.

I call it risk management. Passengers won't know ahead of time if they're going to be ETD screened or not. The way it is handled in other nations, its done efficiently.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer in some areas. I don't consider the 5 opt-out airports which are "private" to be truely "private" in nature. The TSA and government bureaucracy still exists.

We still have people who are reactionary running the show, including left-overs from the FAA. Look at the history of the FAA. Look at how many times the NTSB has suggested changes be made but the FAA either ties it up in bureaucracy or just fails to respond. When a crash happens and lives are lost, the FAA then issues a directive to correct something the NTSB has been advising the FAA about for years.

I'm sure you've heard of Jane Garvey, an old FAAer. Do you know what she said when it was suggested cockpit doors be strengthened? She gave lame excuses about pressurization issues and it couldn't be done. 9/11 happened. Now it's been done.

There's a lot of good books out there about the FAA and its inaction. Some air disasters from the past would not have happened if the FAA listened to the NTSB and other bodies. The procedures the FAA have to follow for new policies and directives are a joke. It's an expensive bureaucracy just like the TSA -- sadly, the TSA leadership behaves just like the FAA has done for years.

RE: Government Employees - I find many government employees (at both state and federal levels) simply don't realize they're civil servants. It shouldn't be a large hassle to get a replacement SSN card from the SSA, but it is. The postal service isn't exactly reliable -- this is why companies like UPS and FedEx are doing great for next day and 2nd day air document deliveries. If the postal service met the needs of the population, UPS and FedEx wouldn't be so popular. I trust UPS more than I trust the USPS.

SDF_Traveler

cpx

I've accidentally taken a lot of things on board (passed through X-ray) that
I shouldnt have. And those things passed the x-ray screening just fine.

In 5 years of flying after 9/11, I must have done this over a dozen
times atleast. Never been noticed. In most cases I found the questionable
items in my bag when I returned.

that doesnt say much about the alertness of the screeners.

Bart

Deleted

Bart

Deleted

stimpy

What does a Patriot missile battery cost? What are the maintenance fees? Is this a war on terrorism or a war on terrorism?

What does it cost the US economy when a plane goes down?

Bart, do you think the US Government puts anywhere near the same amount of pressure or have the same involvement with ETP vendors as they do on missile vendors?

stimpy

Did you notice that I said that private security companies have to be incented correctly? You are referring to a situation where they were not incented correctly to do the job. Look at some other countries airport staff to see examples of how to get it right.

Bart

Deleted