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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   NEWS: TSA Would Allow Sharp Objects on Airliners (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/498344-news-tsa-would-allow-sharp-objects-airliners.html)

Jotmo Nov 30, 2005 10:33 pm


Originally Posted by Teacher49
As many have pointed out, hardened cockpits plus the fact that there are plenty of weapons on board every flight for those trained to improvise mean that this rule was irrelevant from its inception.

Exactly. If it isn't dangerous now, it hasn't been dangerous for the last four years. This has been nothing but window dressing to make the ignorant masses "feel" safe. It had nothing to do with a real threat.

amejr999 Dec 1, 2005 4:03 am

Uh-oh.


The new strategy, which has been tested in Pittsburgh, Indianapolis and Orange County, Calif., will mean that a certain number of passengers, even if they are not identified by these computerized checks, will be pulled aside and subject to an added search lasting about two minutes. Officials said passengers would be selected randomly, without regard to ethnicity or nationality.

What happens next will vary. One day at a certain airport, carry-on bags might be physically searched. On the same day at a different airport, those subject to the random search might have their shoes screened for explosives or be checked with a hand-held metal detector. "By design, a traveler will not experience the same search every time he or she flies," the summary said. "The searches will add an element of unpredictability to the screening process that will be easy for passengers to navigate but difficult for terrorists to manipulate."

greggwiggins Dec 1, 2005 8:48 am


Originally Posted by alex0683de
Like hell they would! In a post 9/11-world, whoever tried something funny would see his arse summarily kicked by whoever could get their hands on him.

And besides, if everyone's allowed to carry ice picks and box cutters and whatever, it's not like the passengers will be defenceless - hey, I might just start carrying a box cutter to be able to intimidate the bad guy... :rolleyes:

I recall reading a shortly-after-9/11-interview with a Continental pilot who was left unidentified by the reporter so the pilot wouldn't get in trouble; the pilot's idea was to have EVERYBODY on board the plane armed with a knife -- if they didn't bring their own, they could pick one up from a box at the gate. "If somebody tries to hijack my flight," he said, "I want them to have to deal with 200 angry people carrying knives."

Teacher49 Dec 1, 2005 9:27 am

Wow! Imagine what that would be like given the number of "suspicious" flyers reported by fellow pax. Imagine wading into a mélee of 200 (or even 20) untrained armed travellers.

Fact is that the hideous 9/11 attacks were a long, long time in the planning, were low-tech attacks designed to catch a sleepy system off-guard, and have already had the desired effect: the killing of many people, the toppling of a symbol of Ameican culture and business, and the burdening of the American population with fear and fear based hastily constructed "security" which cost us dearly in money, dignity and freedom.

Yes, we need security at airports. We also need intelligence and professionalism in the desigh and delivery. What we have is an overblown panic induced, inefficient and non-agile system.

If there were really lots of terrorists out there, we surely would have seen more terror focused on other forms of transportation or other kinds of gathering places.

FliesWay2Much Dec 1, 2005 11:23 am

Dec 20th -- Why?
 
I won't comment on the security aspects of all of this, but I thought long & hard about the date the TSA chose to implement this "improvement."

1. We all know that this will be right in the middle of all the Christmas flying period. When the inevitable chaos occurs, all of it will be masked by the normal chaos of flying during this time of year. TSA wins.

2. This circus will impress the infrequent flyers immensely. The media will follow right along, because there will be an ample supply of the "anything for security crowd" to shove a microphone and camera in front of. TSA wins.

3. The infrequent flyer mass influx will produce ample opportunities to find prohibited items, justify this change, and make examples of several of our fellow citizens. There will also be ample opportunity to detain and arrest those terrorists who get caught with dangerous items such as a joint or two or a large amount of cash. TSA wins.

4. The TSA spokesholes have reinforced the cause/effect spin to "compliance versus checkpoint waiting times." Civil liberties and security bang for the buck aren't even in the equation anymore. TSA wins.

You have to hand it to them -- they know how to work a crowd.

Spiff Dec 1, 2005 11:31 am

I'll try to be "extra visible" to the news crews so I can tell them just how much this new round of harassment equates to 1 step forward, 3 steps backwards. ;)

doober Dec 1, 2005 11:41 am

What I find interesting
 
is that according to the NY Times article:

"These kinds of sharp instruments are now found in about one in four carry-on bags."

Perhaps the TSA has just given up trying to keep small sharp objects off of planes seeing as how it would appear the message has not sunk in.

n5667 Dec 1, 2005 11:48 am


Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much

3. The infrequent flyer mass influx will produce ample opportunities to find prohibited items, justify this change, and make examples of several of our fellow citizens. There will also be ample opportunity to detain and arrest those terrorists who get caught with dangerous items such as a joint or two or a large amount of cash. TSA wins.

4. The TSA spokesholes have reinforced the cause/effect spin to "compliance versus checkpoint waiting times." Civil liberties and security bang for the buck aren't even in the equation anymore. TSA wins.

You have to hand it to them -- they know how to work a crowd.

3) Here in California (at least, here here in california) if you get caught with pot, odds are it gets confiscated and you go on your way (should the D.A wish to pursue charges, that would be exceptional). Rather common and almost never reported...

4) Was it a violation of civil liberties when screening was privatized? I work with people who used to be privatized before 9/11 and according to them the TSA is more customer-service oriented then the preivious model...

FWAAA Dec 1, 2005 11:50 am


Originally Posted by doober
is that according to the NY Times article:

"These kinds of sharp instruments are now found in about one in four carry-on bags."

Perhaps the TSA has just given up trying to keep small sharp objects off of planes seeing as how it would appear the message has not sunk in.

I disagree that "it would appear the message has not sunk in." The "message" was illegitimate from the get-go over four years ago.

IMO, if these objects are found in about 25% of carry-on bags, that shows just how many people don't see the banning of these items as legitimate.

Scaremongers at the TSA and the flight attendant unions can try their hardest to convince us that these items are credible threats, but it looks like people don't universally believe them.

Spiff Dec 1, 2005 11:51 am


Originally Posted by n5667
4) Was it a violation of civil liberties when screening was privatized? I work with people who used to be privatized before 9/11 and according to them the TSA is more customer-service oriented then the preivious model...

The private screeners never, ever harassed me the way the The Second Al-Qaida does.

Federalizing airport screening was one of the biggest blunders this nation has ever made. :td:

FliesWay2Much Dec 1, 2005 11:52 am


Originally Posted by Spiff
I'll try to be "extra visible" to the news crews so I can tell them just how much this new round of harassment equates to 1 step forward, 3 steps backwards. ;)

..and don't forget to make them change gloves...

n5667 Dec 1, 2005 11:58 am


Originally Posted by Spiff
The private screeners never, ever harassed me the way the The Second Al-Qaida does.

Federalizing airport screening was one of the biggest blunders this nation has ever made. :td:

What sort of harrassment are you subject to, if I may ask?

Spiff Dec 1, 2005 11:59 am


Originally Posted by n5667
What sort of harrassment are you subject to, if I may ask?

Shoe harassment

Being groped

Having my ID scrutinized

Having my belongings opened with no probable cause to do so

n5667 Dec 1, 2005 12:03 pm


Originally Posted by Spiff
Shoe harassment

Being groped

Having my ID scrutinized

Having my belongings opened with no probable cause to do so

Being groped? I'd file charges over that one, the rest I'm not sure you have much of a case...

...And there's probable cause, you're flying on a plane! :D

PatrickHenry1775 Dec 1, 2005 12:06 pm


Originally Posted by n5667
Being groped? I'd file charges over that one, the rest I'm not sure you have much of a case...

...And there's probable cause, you're flying on a plane! :D

Please cite the U.S. Supreme Court opinion holding that the mere fact an American is trying to board an airplane is probable cause to search that American.


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