Airline Security Changes Planned
#16




Join Date: May 2000
Location: IAD/DCA/BWI
Programs: SQ, LH, AMEX, Citi, Cap1
Posts: 4,113
Originally Posted by Bart
As for exempting certain people from regular screening, I have to admit that I felt goofy screening the few Senators that I've screened. And I also feel it's a waste of time screening general officers and airline pilots. So if TSA exempts these people from screening, I don't have a problem with it. Airline pilots, by the very nature of their job, don't need a pair of scissors, a screwdriver or even a gun to take down a plane. All they have to do is just point the nose down. So it's a waste of time for us to screen them.
One thing I think about the issue with screening the people you mentioned above is verifying identity. How can you verify that an airline pilot really is one and not a bomber with a fake badge or an airline pilot who is actually going to fly (vs. one who is just flying in a passenger's seat?) Are caterers, gate agents, and mechanics exempt too? What about TSA?
- Pat
#17
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 10,034
It's starting to sound real to me now. I kind of think this was put out as a "feeler" to see what public reaction would be (there's a political term for this, but I forget what it is).
With all the news media outlets picking up on this, there's GOT to be something done, whether it's a relaxation of the prohibited items list and/or leniency of the shoe carnival.
That said, I was listening to CBS radio news a couple of hours ago and heard that the governor of Illinois was not pleased about the scissors or stars thing being re-allowed. He is talking about making it a state law to not allow those items aboard aircraft in his state. Given how it's all federal, I don't know how he's going to get his jurisdictional tentacles wrapped around that one, but we'll see.
Again, cautiously optimistic are the words here in 59-degree Denver today.
With all the news media outlets picking up on this, there's GOT to be something done, whether it's a relaxation of the prohibited items list and/or leniency of the shoe carnival.
That said, I was listening to CBS radio news a couple of hours ago and heard that the governor of Illinois was not pleased about the scissors or stars thing being re-allowed. He is talking about making it a state law to not allow those items aboard aircraft in his state. Given how it's all federal, I don't know how he's going to get his jurisdictional tentacles wrapped around that one, but we'll see.
Again, cautiously optimistic are the words here in 59-degree Denver today.
#18



Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Land of ORD
Programs: AA Plat UA Premier
Posts: 9,339
Originally Posted by Wiirachay
Bart,
One thing I think about the issue with screening the people you mentioned above is verifying identity. How can you verify that an airline pilot really is one and not a bomber with a fake badge or an airline pilot who is actually going to fly (vs. one who is just flying in a passenger's seat?) Are caterers, gate agents, and mechanics exempt too? What about TSA?
- Pat
One thing I think about the issue with screening the people you mentioned above is verifying identity. How can you verify that an airline pilot really is one and not a bomber with a fake badge or an airline pilot who is actually going to fly (vs. one who is just flying in a passenger's seat?) Are caterers, gate agents, and mechanics exempt too? What about TSA?
- Pat
This was another story that dropped out of site after awhile and we never saw the update.
How would we know they were real IDs? How many senators and congressmen could we recognize?
It is a bad idea to exempt anyone from screening. No weapons means no weapons. Government officials are not a higher class of citizen.
#19
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Programs: UA 1P
Posts: 184
Yes and No
This is good and bad. Loosening up on the prohibited item list, shoe carnival, SSSS is all for the good. The throwing star thing goes a bit far, but no one is going to hijack an airplane with archery equipment (which competitive archers are probably loath to check in as baggage)
Exempting congressmen is a terrible idea. They need to be treated as ordinary citizens are. Same with federal judges - if they get a case in front of them dealing with screening in some way, the experience of having gone through it themselves is valuable.
The top secret clearance thing is very strange. Have they started issuing ID cards to show active clearances? When I worked for the government, that was certainly not the case. Some federal agencies don't even call the clearances by the same name (i.e. DOE's Q clearance), although there are equivalencies.
If I was a pessimist, I'd guess that the bad stuff will be approved and the good stuff will be rejected. I'm hoping for a pleasant surprise....
Lets all hope Bart is right.
Exempting congressmen is a terrible idea. They need to be treated as ordinary citizens are. Same with federal judges - if they get a case in front of them dealing with screening in some way, the experience of having gone through it themselves is valuable.
The top secret clearance thing is very strange. Have they started issuing ID cards to show active clearances? When I worked for the government, that was certainly not the case. Some federal agencies don't even call the clearances by the same name (i.e. DOE's Q clearance), although there are equivalencies.
If I was a pessimist, I'd guess that the bad stuff will be approved and the good stuff will be rejected. I'm hoping for a pleasant surprise....
Lets all hope Bart is right.
Last edited by dgolding; Aug 13, 2005 at 5:55 pm
#20
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: PHX
Posts: 3,794
I still can't see exempting pilots from screening entirely. Even if you assume they could crash the plane anyway (ala Egypt Air 990), they could still act as a witting or unwitting mule. "Put this package in the men's room, and take the $10,000." Would you trust foreign pilots as well?
Screening of airline staff started with PSA 1771 in 1987. Prior to that, airline employees could enter the secure area without a check.
After being fired, David Burke took a gun on board and murdered the flight crew. The plane crashed killing him and everyone else on board. I don't see any of the people listed as possibly being exempt that would also be exempt from going whacko like this.
Screening of airline staff started with PSA 1771 in 1987. Prior to that, airline employees could enter the secure area without a check.
After being fired, David Burke took a gun on board and murdered the flight crew. The plane crashed killing him and everyone else on board. I don't see any of the people listed as possibly being exempt that would also be exempt from going whacko like this.
#21
FlyerTalk Evangelist


Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: An NPR mind living in a Fox News world
Posts: 14,343
I Smell a Rat!
Where the "I smell a rat" comes in is the carefully-worded phrases about doing these things as a cost-reduction measure. This tactic is one of the oldest tricks in the book here inside the Beltway. Chertoff is annoyed that his budget has been cut. So, he floats a trial balloon like this where he basically threatens to cut the meat from his agency because Congress has cut his budget. He sent out his talking head to make these remarks just to see who pushes back and how far they do.
His goal is to get an outcry from Congress along the lines of "You CAN'T do this!!!" in order for Congress to see the error of their ways and restore most of his budget cut. If Congress does nothing, he's not on the hook to actually follow through with these threats -- and that's what these are -- threats.
I find it interesting that he did this during the August recess. Staffers are in town, but the members aren't. So, he's not going to get a reaction. I guess his motivation was perhaps to get revenge by ruining a few vacations.
Even if this were real, I do not believe that the DHS/TSA culture will permit change this radical to happen. Just one of these changes would take 6-12 months to implement.
My recommendation is that we don't read too much into this proposal. It's simply the political process at work.
His goal is to get an outcry from Congress along the lines of "You CAN'T do this!!!" in order for Congress to see the error of their ways and restore most of his budget cut. If Congress does nothing, he's not on the hook to actually follow through with these threats -- and that's what these are -- threats.
I find it interesting that he did this during the August recess. Staffers are in town, but the members aren't. So, he's not going to get a reaction. I guess his motivation was perhaps to get revenge by ruining a few vacations.
Even if this were real, I do not believe that the DHS/TSA culture will permit change this radical to happen. Just one of these changes would take 6-12 months to implement.
My recommendation is that we don't read too much into this proposal. It's simply the political process at work.
#22
FlyerTalk Evangelist




Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA Gold, HH Diamond, National Emerald Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,180
Originally Posted by tazi
Actually, I think most congressmen should be screened as they ARE known bad guys. 

#23


Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: RDU
Posts: 389
Originally Posted by Bart
...What's needed instead is that they undergo a thorough background investigation. I do disagree with exempting anyone with a top-secret security clearance from screening. I've conducted a significant number of criminal and counterintelligence investigations with subjects who had such clearances.
#24


Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: A small town in North Georgia
Programs: DL Platinum Medallion, AA
Posts: 1,680
Knives, scissors, arrows and throwing stars will be allowed, but no mention of
other small items currently banned, like my small jewelry making and wire cutters?
How about if they just start with only looking at your ID and boarding pass ONCE. As much as I would appreciate not having to remove my shoes, jewelry and glasses, I don't look for any changes in the near future.
other small items currently banned, like my small jewelry making and wire cutters?
How about if they just start with only looking at your ID and boarding pass ONCE. As much as I would appreciate not having to remove my shoes, jewelry and glasses, I don't look for any changes in the near future.
#25
FlyerTalk Evangelist



Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NRT
Programs: Tokyo Monorail Diamond-Encrusted-Platinum
Posts: 10,045
Originally Posted by alanh
I still can't see exempting pilots from screening entirely. Even if you assume they could crash the plane anyway (ala Egypt Air 990), they could still act as a witting or unwitting mule. "Put this package in the men's room, and take the $10,000." Would you trust foreign pilots as well?
Consider that the IRA recently managed to rob a bank in Northern Ireland by taking hostage the families of two senior managers at the bank and then getting those two guys to allow the robbery to take place. I think this shows that if a person's family is under threat he can be coerced to do some pretty dire stuff. (OK - so a bloodless bank robbery is not in the same league as a hijacking).
If pilots became exempt from the security check, how far fetched is it to imagine that a terrorist organization would use this kind of tactic to force a pilot to take a prohibited item into the airside zone and leave it there for someone to use on another flight?
For this reason, I think there should be no exemptions. By all means give pilots, senators, VIPs and morris dancers a priority lane or something - but make sure that they are screened as thoroughly as everyone else. To do less could put their families at risk.
Last edited by jib71; Aug 13, 2005 at 11:33 pm
#26
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,015
TSA= Typical Screener Arrogance
I'm concerned that the proposal contains two paragraphs referring to screeners' "discretion". This terminology is almost oxymoronic as stated. Their job is to be seen SCREENING people, not standing by twirling their HHMD wands (I'll leave it to you to choose which activity is most security-vital). Secondly, I wonder how many of them could even spell "discretion" and still get one letter in the correct position. Seems to me very little would change, given the more than often arrogant or assertive-to-the-point-of-absolute-nausea attitude many screeners display.
With 100 SSI criteria items which comprise the SSS public SSSlap in the face, it's also a good bet you'll still be forced to grovel in any number of ways and never be told why.
You guys go first. I don't trust people with big smiles calling me a damned liar by inference. Let me know how cold (and sticky) the floor is...
With 100 SSI criteria items which comprise the SSS public SSSlap in the face, it's also a good bet you'll still be forced to grovel in any number of ways and never be told why.
You guys go first. I don't trust people with big smiles calling me a damned liar by inference. Let me know how cold (and sticky) the floor is...
#27
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,389
Originally Posted by HookemHorns
Excluding those with high-level clearances (or perhaps those with polygraphs on file) does offer one advantage - it removes a well-investigated, low-risk population from the screening pool without regard to anything that could be considered prejudicial (race, religion, sex, etc). Of course, it would concern me a bit if a large number of the CIs you did on these individuals yielded derogatory information 

If we are truly going to embrace risk management, then we have to accept the concept of exemptions. But let's not let the pendulum swing all the way to the other side and become a matter of political or economic convenience.
#28
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend, In Memoriam




Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Yiron, Israel
Programs: Bates Motel Plat
Posts: 69,201
Originally Posted by chartreuse
But do you even need to go that far when we get congressmen turning up with loaded firearms they forgot they had?
Although I am no Hillary fan, if she carries a firearm for her own protection and forgets she has it in her purse, I can not foresee her suddenly remembering inflight that she has it and deciding to hijack the plane.
#29
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 928
Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
Where the "I smell a rat" comes in is the carefully-worded phrases about doing these things as a cost-reduction measure. This tactic is one of the oldest tricks in the book here inside the Beltway. Chertoff is annoyed that his budget has been cut. So, he floats a trial balloon like this where he basically threatens to cut the meat from his agency because Congress has cut his budget. He sent out his talking head to make these remarks just to see who pushes back and how far they do.
His goal is to get an outcry from Congress along the lines of "You CAN'T do this!!!" in order for Congress to see the error of their ways and restore most of his budget cut. If Congress does nothing, he's not on the hook to actually follow through with these threats -- and that's what these are -- threats.
I find it interesting that he did this during the August recess. Staffers are in town, but the members aren't. So, he's not going to get a reaction. I guess his motivation was perhaps to get revenge by ruining a few vacations.
Even if this were real, I do not believe that the DHS/TSA culture will permit change this radical to happen. Just one of these changes would take 6-12 months to implement.
My recommendation is that we don't read too much into this proposal. It's simply the political process at work.
His goal is to get an outcry from Congress along the lines of "You CAN'T do this!!!" in order for Congress to see the error of their ways and restore most of his budget cut. If Congress does nothing, he's not on the hook to actually follow through with these threats -- and that's what these are -- threats.
I find it interesting that he did this during the August recess. Staffers are in town, but the members aren't. So, he's not going to get a reaction. I guess his motivation was perhaps to get revenge by ruining a few vacations.
Even if this were real, I do not believe that the DHS/TSA culture will permit change this radical to happen. Just one of these changes would take 6-12 months to implement.
My recommendation is that we don't read too much into this proposal. It's simply the political process at work.
#30


Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 2,422
Really I think this is all good.
The Congress exemption seems weird, but I could care less.
The most significant part of the changes, which I hope take effect, is the reduction in secondaries. If there is one thing that sets people on this board ablaze, it's cuckoo secondary screening. From a cost-cutting perspective, it seems like an obvious choice. Reducing secondaries will save money and make informed passengers happy.
If Chertoff and committee members are thinking clearly, they'll decide that someone who chooses to wear flip-flops, who doesn't alarm the WTMD, probably doesn't need a full secondary.
Likewise, the airlines can finally come to their own senses and edit their SSSS selection criteria. I always want to say, "Yes, after 100,000 miles over the last couple of years, I've decided that THIS is the flight in which I'll become a terrorist. It's a good thing that you selected me!"
As far as sharp objects go, I've never had issues myself with carrying any forbidden objects, but the danger presented by belt buckles, blenders and rolling pins does seem exaggerated.
Now if only the new rules could include recommendations for screeners to use their "inside voices..."
The Congress exemption seems weird, but I could care less.
The most significant part of the changes, which I hope take effect, is the reduction in secondaries. If there is one thing that sets people on this board ablaze, it's cuckoo secondary screening. From a cost-cutting perspective, it seems like an obvious choice. Reducing secondaries will save money and make informed passengers happy.
If Chertoff and committee members are thinking clearly, they'll decide that someone who chooses to wear flip-flops, who doesn't alarm the WTMD, probably doesn't need a full secondary.
Likewise, the airlines can finally come to their own senses and edit their SSSS selection criteria. I always want to say, "Yes, after 100,000 miles over the last couple of years, I've decided that THIS is the flight in which I'll become a terrorist. It's a good thing that you selected me!"
As far as sharp objects go, I've never had issues myself with carrying any forbidden objects, but the danger presented by belt buckles, blenders and rolling pins does seem exaggerated.
Now if only the new rules could include recommendations for screeners to use their "inside voices..."

