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Originally Posted by Japhydog
I actually know. I've looked it up. Again, show us the statute if you think buying another ticket is illegal.
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Originally Posted by bocastephen
If I am driving and see a DUI checkpoint, and I have another street I can turn onto in order to get around the checkpoint, is that illegal? Who can prove that I made the turn to avoid the check rather than follow my preferred routing? If I buy a full fare ticket to avoid the SSSS, who can prove that I didn't buy the full fare ticket as a backup in case my original flight was delayed or I decided to switch flights at the last minute?
The government might not like what they "think" my intent was, but they can't prove that I truly had the intent to evade these checks...their assumption would be circumstantial and opinion, not fact. Truth be told, I have often made side street turns or U-turns to evade checkpoints, not because I want to get away with a DUI (I dont even drink, let alone drink and drive), but the scope of the roadside check often goes far beyond the stated intent of checking for alcohol (thanks to the anti-Constitutional courts), and I believe I am fully within my rights to evade it, as well as the SSSS check if I can do so without my actions being an obvious violation of the law. However, even with a statute barring the willful evasion of a SSSS airport check, I find it hard to believe that it could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (required for a criminal conviction) that the sole purpose for buying an extra ticket would be to evade a secondary screening - likewise it would be equally as hard to prove the sole purpose for a turn down another road would be to avoid a roadside check. Now if I was caught with a photocopy of a boarding card that had the SSSS removed with liquid paper and it can be shown that the original card was printed with a SSSS code, perhaps that might be a different story ;) |
Originally Posted by Japhydog
As much as I agree with your sentiments, bocastephen, the fact remains that in the United States of America nothing is illegal if it is not defined in a law as illegal. There is NOT ONE STATUTE on the books that makes purchasing a ticket, whatever one's intent, illegal. One can speculate and dissimulate all one wants. Until there is a statute making purchasing a ticket illegal, it is not illegal.
Now getting back to my side of the fence, of someone made the above argument to me, my answer is simple: "prove it". |
Originally Posted by Japhydog
As much as I agree with your sentiments, bocastephen, the fact remains that in the United States of America nothing is illegal if it is not defined in a law as illegal. There is NOT ONE STATUTE on the books that makes purchasing a ticket, whatever one's intent, illegal. One can speculate and dissimulate all one wants. Until there is a statute making purchasing a ticket illegal, it is not illegal.
If one's perspective (not criticizing any one individual) is law enforcement or security, it's straightforward to understand how perhaps these individuals would react negatively to anything that limits their perceived authority -- even the Constitution of the United States these law enforcement/security personnel are sworn to uphold and defend. All too often, this concern about restriction of authority leads to the attitude once expressed by General Curtis LeMay, who, in the midst of the Cold War, once said (within the context of a mass nuclear retaliation on the Soviet Union), "Nuke 'em all; let God sort them out." To read the attitudes and opinions of assumed screeners on this and other boards, the prevalent attitude appears to be, "Harass or detain them all; let God sort them out." |
Here's why I don't think the "refundable ticket" loophole is illegal, besides the fact there's no statutory authority prohibiting it...
Look at CAPPS in the light most favorable to the government. (I know that's hard for some of you to do, but set reality aside for a moment.) It is designed to flag persons who warrant greater scrutiny at the checkpoint. If Bob Jones is personally considered by the government to be of higher risk, his ticket will get an SSSS whether he is traveling one-way, round trip, cash, credit card, status, no status, K class, Y class, F class, Auckland or Oakland, every day of the week, twice on Sundays. If Bob Jones is *not* personally considered by the government to be of higher risk, but the ticketing activity is considered to be of higher risk, he will perhaps get SSSS for a O/W reroute, but perhaps not for a roundtrip refundable ticket. So Bob buys the full-fare Y ticket, no SSSS. Bob himself is not a target for extra scrutiny. Bob hasn't evaded jack. He went through the checkpoint and didn't set off any alarms. If the government was that interested in him, he'd be on a list. And if he was on that list...yeah, twice on Sundays. So now then. TSA could amend SSSS to do away with o/ws and "ticketing activity" as a SSSS trigger. (I know, y'all want SSSS if not screening as we know it to go away. I'm being realistic.) Or TSA could amend SSSS to flag walk-up purchases and/or refundable purchases. |
Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much
If one's perspective (not criticizing any one individual) is law enforcement or security, it's straightforward to understand how perhaps these individuals would react negatively to anything that limits their perceived authority -- even the Constitution of the United States these law enforcement/security personnel are sworn to uphold and defend.
All too often, this concern about restriction of authority leads to the attitude once expressed by General Curtis LeMay, who, in the midst of the Cold War, once said (within the context of a mass nuclear retaliation on the Soviet Union), "Nuke 'em all; let God sort them out." To read the attitudes and opinions of assumed screeners on this and other boards, the prevalent attitude appears to be, "Harass or detain them all; let God sort them out." |
Originally Posted by myefre
As long as our glorious leaders in Washington say it is legal than it is.
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Originally Posted by eyecue
If you have both BP's on you, then it would not be hard to prove that you did it.
Originally Posted by eyecue
Besides that, there is a civil penalty and you could end up on a no fly list. Is it worth it?
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Originally Posted by eyecue
N.D.C.C § 12.1-24-01. The statute provides:
1. A person is guilty of forgery or counterfeiting if, with intent to deceive or harm the government or another person, or with knowledge that he is facilitating such deception or harm by another person, he: a. Knowingly and falsely makes, completes, or alters any writing; or b. Knowingly utters or possesses a forged or counterfeited writing. |
Originally Posted by Japhydog
Agreed. And if I am detained for having a lawful boarding pass from a ticket I obtained lawfully, I will certainly file a multitude of grievances with/against the offending parties. They can sort out who writes the check to me later. (I'm not so vain as to think God will write me a check.) ;)
And for all those amazingly brave folk (well, brave behind computer screens anyway) I have one little maxim for you - beat the rap but take the ride. |
Originally Posted by AArlington
... Does TSA's authority to search me for weapons/pot/prohibited items also give TSA the authority to view my papers? To look at data on my hard disk? To look at numbers stored in my telephone?...
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Originally Posted by law dawg
Again, never said it was against the law to purchase another ticket to circumvent the SSSS. I was responding to GradGirl's post. She has made numerous statements before abaout altering tickets. That may get her in trouble.
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nope
Originally Posted by GradGirl
SSSS has a purpose. That purpose is to catch terrorists. Anyone who's not a terrorist is morally in the clear to evade it, IMO. I'm saving the tax system wasted money that would be spent to search a non-terrorist.
If the TSA wanted to enforce SSSS selections, it could get a better system. It chooses to have a system that's fully exploitable in any number of ways to evade SSSS. Thus, I conclude that TSA must not really care about SSSS selection, particularly in light of Dovster's noting that SSSS applies only the first time through the checkpoint. If all my mechanisms to evade SSSS fail, I have a simple backup method: I'll drive. I'm never letting those scary screeners put their hands all over me again. |
Originally Posted by law dawg
... is skirting legally authorized checkpoints.
Nick (As an aside it would be interesting to see the statistics for how many weapons were able to pass the ordinary x-ray and metal detector, but were caught by the secondary screening.) |
Originally Posted by NihonNick
Or is the TSA saying that it is only those people who get and pass secondary screening that do not present a threat to the plane?
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