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Originally Posted by NONpretentiousflyer
I think Cameraguy just got put in he same catagory as Spiff.
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Originally Posted by BpainHell
I dont think I need to address Cameraguys threat as some folks have already seen to it.. Let's try to remember pot and kettle..
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Calling an individual member a MORON is a personal attack. Refering to FAM's in general as Poorly Trained Hacks is NOT. |
Originally Posted by NONpretentiousflyer
I think Cameraguy just got put in he same catagory as Spiff.
Well, put me in that category too! :D |
Originally Posted by CameraGuy
Let's get something straight right now:
Calling an individual member a MORON is a personal attack. Refering to FAM's in general as Poorly Trained Hacks is NOT. Here in MA, we refer to overpaid Government Employees as hacks. Thus, that term. As for poorly trained, I'll let the steller record of the FAM service speak for itself. Calling any government agency a joke is not an attack on the employees of that agency, it is an attack on the agency itself. The fact that I needed to point this out indicates that we are probably not dealing with real FAM's, but a bunch of teenagers in dire need of adult supervision. Government employees are poorly trained hacks. Law Dawg is a government employee. Therefore, Law Dawg is a poorly trained hack. Yep, that makes it a personal attack, not an attack on some faceless agency. The fact that I needed to point that out indicates you were asleep in school. I guess if you refer to "overpaid Government Employees" as hacks then I can refer to FFs as boorish a$$e$ and no one would take offense. To use you (ill)logic? Yeah, right. :rolleyes: BTW, you still haven't answered my post as to the events of 9/11 and the (lack) of passengers fighting back. You think you (the general passengers) can handle anything that happens again, yet the evidence speaks against you. And so does history, because these guys continue to return to hijackings time and time again. |
Originally Posted by CameraGuy
Let's get something straight right now:
Calling an individual member a MORON is a personal attack. Refering to FAM's in general as Poorly Trained Hacks is NOT. By your statement, it is OK to insult you if I place you in part of a group, right? (This is just an example...I do not mean this in any way) If I say Cameraguy is an a-hole, it's bad. But if I said Frequent Flyers are a-holes, it's OK. I don't play the name calling game. And you can call TSA whatever you choose. Doesn't bother me. I'm just questioning the logic. |
Originally Posted by law dawg
Look at those times - there was time to fight and nobody did. Only the last flight fought back and it took 25 MINUTES AND A VOTE! This is not to disparage their memories-they were heroic. My point is that most people are not born with the basic double-load of guts. They need time to work up their courage. Going from zero to killing people in a matter of seconds is difficult if not impossible for the average civilian. A few of the Alphas may step forward and get the rest in the fight, but you need time for that. It takes time....adrenaline is a hell of a thing. It freezes many people, especially if they just saw someone brutally murdered. Nonetheless the myth of the passengers fighting back is just that - a myth. Trained soldiers in WWII had a firing rate of only 20%. Think about that - only 20% of TRAINED soldiers in WWII fired their weapons at the enemy. The rate was raised to 80% in Korea and 95% in Vietnam. But that was only because of innovations in training, not because of a new breed of human was developed. Passengers fighting back will only happen given time and the ability to coordinate. Do you think the next hijackers will give them the time to do so? Send them to the back of the plane like on 9/11? I don't. They learn their lessons and have since terrorists began using hijacking as a means of political speech in 1985 (TWA 847 in Athens, Greece).
Sorry Camera, but all the evidence shows that people will NOT in fact fight back. Only 1/3 of the planes on 9/11 did, even after they knew what was going to happen. And the only one that did needed 25 minutes to do so. Now please enlighten me on the times you have fought for your life, the weapons you have used and had used against you and the tactics you used to survive. Explain to me the effects of adrenaline on the human body and how you have utilized and been trained in scenario-based training to overcome their effects. Tell me what a bad mofo you are and how you could single-handledly defeat the next hijacking (because if you jump up first you will be alone until someone else jumps up to help you (hope they aren't all the way in the back)) What do you think your life expectancy is ? I don't want some useless, expensive, gun-toting sack of ballast stealing one of two premium class seats just so that they can possibly help out where the passengers and crew cannot in the most unlikely and improbable of scenarios. Let the marshals perform complimentary, voluntary radon inspections to homes. The number of deaths prevented by this boondoggle of a program will be more. |
Originally Posted by Spiff
The passengers waited because there was still SOP mindset of negotiating with terrorists in place. That mindset is gone. In all instances since 9/11 where there has been a suspected terrorist on the plane (someone attacking the cockpit door, etc) the passengers have attacked the suspect. In not one instance since 9/11 has an individual been permitted to challenge the authority of the flight crew with impunity. None. That is because the passengers and crew will no longer negotiate with terrorists and the flight deck is secure.
I don't want some useless, expensive, gun-toting sack of ballast stealing one of two premium class seats just so that they can possibly help out where the passengers and crew cannot in the most unlikely and improbable of scenarios. Let the marshals perform complimentary, voluntary radon inspections to homes. The number of deaths prevented by this boondoggle of a program will be more. There has not been one single hijacking attempt in the US since. In the one in South America on a US carrier it took the flight crew hiting the guy over the head with an axe to stop it. No passenger involvement. The passengers seem willing to step in on non-violent actions but sorely lacking in violent attempts. How about the guy from Hawaii? Ex-con storming the cockpit. No sign of passenger involvement - FAMs did the work. If the passengers waited because of some mindset then they were stupid. They KNEW what was going to happen. It was not theory, it was reality. Only American 11 didn't fight back because of SOP mindset. After that one it was time to get out of the box and do something. They did not, even thought they knew they were going to die. Is it really your opinion that they knew they were going to die but still trusted in a SOP mindset that was completely irrelevent in this situation? I submit they were not stupid - they were terrified. The adrenaline hit them and they froze. Happens to people all the time, including trained soldiers. What people need to have is time for their cognitive processes to begin again, which I doubt anyone will allow the passengers to have again. Most counter-terrorist operators endure countless hours of stress-based, scenario-intensive training to learn to deal with the effects of adrenaline on the body and reactivate their fine motor skills. They are not, by nature, better able to handle stress than anyone else, but they have been exposed to specifically designed training to acclimate themselves. Yes there have been instances where the flight crews authority was challenged with impunity. Your opinions do not match the facts. And if FAMs are ballast, you are just hot air. If they are useless then you are less than that. Have fun in coach. |
A: Calling FF'ers anything as a group is NOT a personal attack. The key word here is PERSONAL. If the attack (such as calling a member a moron) is aimed at a SPECIFIC member, then it is a personal attack. If it is aimed at a group of people, most of whom (FF'er, Screeners, FAM's) are not members, then it is NOT a personal attack.
B: Richard Reid. The nitwit who stormed the cockpit of a Southwest Airlines Aircraft and a United flight on the west coast are three instances of passenger intervention. FAM's are a waste of taxpayer and airline resources. By bringing a weapon on board, they are creating FAR too many potential problems. |
Originally Posted by CameraGuy
A: Calling FF'ers anything as a group is [b]NOT[b/] a personal attack. The key word here is PERSONAL. If the attack (such as calling a member a moron) is aimed at a SPECIFIC member, then it is a personal attack. If it is aimed at a group of people, most of whom (FF'er, Screeners, FAM's) are not members, then it is NOT a personal attack.
B: Richard Reid. The nitwit who stormed the cockpit of a Southwest Airlines Aircraft and a United flight on the west coast are three instances of passenger intervention. FAM's are a waste of taxpayer and airline resources. By bringing a weapon on board, they are creating FAR too many potential problems. And yes, Richard Reid was subdued by ONE passenger (a basketball player) AFTER the flight attendant had been knocked aside after several attempts to stop him. Still, there has been no real crime of violence (I am talking about stabbings and murders) yet that have involved passengers. The only really violent situations have been handled by FAMs and flight crews. |
Stabbings and Murders?
I must have missed the news those nights. You seem to have fallen into the trap that quite a few Government Employees fall into. Your job is not nearly as tough as you think it is. |
Originally Posted by CameraGuy
Stabbings and Murders?
I must have missed the news those nights. You seem to have fallen into the trap that quite a few Government Employees fall into. Your job is not nearly as tough as you think it is. The stabbings and murders that I was referencing happened on 9/11. No passenger has yet had to stop one of those. Of course, FAMs have not either, but they at least have been trained to do so. What training have you had? |
Originally Posted by Spiff
The passengers waited because there was still SOP mindset of negotiating with terrorists in place. That mindset is gone. In all instances since 9/11 where there has been a suspected terrorist on the plane (someone attacking the cockpit door, etc) the passengers have attacked the suspect. In not one instance since 9/11 has an individual been permitted to challenge the authority of the flight crew with impunity. None. That is because the passengers and crew will no longer negotiate with terrorists and the flight deck is secure.
I don't want some useless, expensive, gun-toting sack of ballast stealing one of two premium class seats just so that they can possibly help out where the passengers and crew cannot in the most unlikely and improbable of scenarios. Let the marshals perform complimentary, voluntary radon inspections to homes. The number of deaths prevented by this boondoggle of a program will be more. http://www.irishnews.com/access/brea...x&n=4055788&x= 17/08/2004 19:09:54 Greek air rage man gets three months jail A Greek passenger who had to be restrained by US federal air marshal after he became abusive on a transatlantic flight was tonight jailed for three months. Peter Genovezos, aged 36, became disruptive on a Delta Airlines flight from New York to Athens. The captain of the plane diverted to Shannon Airport and landed at 5am. Mr Genovezos was arrested by gardaí. He was given a three-month jail sentence and fined €300 at a special sitting of Galway District Court. The Boeing 767, which can carry up to 195 passengers, refuelled at Shannon and departed for Athens at 7.20am. It landed in the Greek capital at 12.45pm. Shannon Airport has seen a number of planes diverted from the United States in recent years over air rage incidents as it is the first airport in Europe on the transatlantic route. Earlier, airport spokeswoman Claire McEnery said most air rage incidents were related to excessive consumption of alcohol. In April, an American Airlines flight from New York to London diverted to Shannon after two US passengers attacked cabin crew and caused €20,000 damage to the plane. The two men were fined €50,000 after admitting the air rage incidents and banned from flying for two years. |
Originally Posted by BpainHell
Enjoy..
http://www.irishnews.com/access/brea...x&n=4055788&x= 17/08/2004 19:09:54 Greek air rage man gets three months jail A Greek passenger who had to be restrained by US federal air marshal after he became abusive on a transatlantic flight was tonight jailed for three months. If you've got any instance of a passenger being able to challenge the authority of the flight crew with impunity, I'd love to read it. |
And I'm not sure that stopping one loud mouth on a plane justifies the cost of the air marshal program.
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