Loren Pechtel

Disagree. While it wouldn't fire if it were resting on the trigger it could fire if it was falling and the trigger hit something (say, his finger going into the trigger guard when he grabbed it.

WillCAD

Nope.

It takes 10 pounds of pressure to fully depress the trigger on that model of handgun in double-action mode (assuming it hasn't been modified). The weapon fully loaded weighs less than 3 pounds. Therefore, gravity alone pulling down on the weapon would not have exerted the necessary 10 pounds of pressure to fully depress the trigger if it 'landed' on the agent's finger.

Also, I cannot imagine the chain of unlikely events that would have caused the agent to catch a falling weapon with only one finger inside the trigger guard in just the correct position to depress the trigger, since it was falling from a shoulder holster and was almost certainly falling butt-first (because that's the direction it withdraws from the holster and the butt is also the heaviest portion of the weapon). If he'd caught it with only one finger, he'd have caught it by the trigger guard, not the trigger, and even if it did discharge, it probably would have discharged upward, not downward.

The more I think about this story, the more fishy it becomes. I'm beginning to think he did something monumentally stupid and concocted the whole "got caught and fell out of the holster" story to cover his embarrassment.

Boggie Dog

There is more than just the weight of the weapon that needs to be considered. Acceleration plays a factor in how much force is needed to arrest a falling object.

What we don't know about this event is really a big issue. What kind of weapon, was it modified, how far did the weapon fall, and how was it caught.

What we do know is that the weapon reportedly fell and was discharged. I hope investigators ask all of the questions that are needed before taking the CBP employees weapon away.

WillCAD

True, but given that the weapon fell out of a holster and was caught, I wouldn't think it could have fallen more than a foot or so, meaning that increased impact force due to acceleration would be negligible.

Somehow I doubt that any details of the "investigation" will be released publicly. ICE will call an in internal matter and decline to comment, but all that will happen is that the agent will be interviewed by someone who will buy his story at face value, laugh at his stupidity a little, tell him to be more careful in the future, and perhaps place a mildly worded written reprimand in his personnel file.

chollie

This guy was supposedly on vacation. I wonder if he'd had a couple drinks, just enough to slow his reflexes down a fraction and make him a slight bit clumsy.

It wouldn't be unreasonable (that's why there are bars in airports!), but it wouldn't be something they'd want to advertise, either.

N830MH

Yes, he is. He's still on vacation, but he won't know for sure. He will return to KC, but he can't have a gun anymore. He must had placed a gun into checked bags instead. Don't bring a gun on the plane. Don't do it!

Loren Pechtel

The point is a falling object is subject to a momentary force at impact far greater than the force it's weight would exist while resting. If the catch exerts 4g the gun fires.

Why would the weight distribution have anything to do with the direction it fell? It wouldn't have nearly enough time to rotate in response to a weight imbalance.

dimramon

Glock Trigger?

Maybe he was, just like the DEA agent from a few years ago, "the only person in the room qualified to handle a firearm"...

chollie

For those among us who know more about firearms than I do, this may be of interest and possibly relevant to what happened with the ICE agent.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...olstered-p320/

Boggie Dog

We don't know what weapon the ICE person was carrying. The other difference is the ICE person reportedly caught the weapon while falling.

WillCAD

It wouldn't have had nearly enough time to develop 4g of impact force, either. If he caught it in his hand, the farthest it could have fallen was maybe two feet; probably less, since the guy doesn't look very limber and couldn't have bent at the waist quickly enough to catch it at knee-level. Most likely he caught it at waist-level, which would mean that it barely fell any distance at all, it just came out of the holster and he grabbed it... and pulled the trigger when he did.

As for falling butt-first, the butt of the gun doesn't actually rest in the holster and is already being pulled down by gravity, held in place only by the holster's hold on the slide and forward portions of the receiver. As soon as it begins to come out, the butt rotates toward the force of gravity, while the muzzle end is slowed by the friction exerted on it by the holster.

Unless of course whatever supposedly pulled it out popped it into the air like a toaster strudel, which would be a whole 'nother kettle of fishiness...

But even if I'm wrong about all of this, the central issue is still that the guy was carrying a weapon in an insecure holster, through a public place, was clumsy enough to knock his own weapon out of the holster, and pulled the trigger when he caught it. This is not a person who should ever be allowed to carry a weapon again, as he has clearly demonstrated a complete lack of ability to do so safely. It was pure luck that he was the only one hurt by this negligent discharge, and not some toddler on their way to see Mickey Mouse.

dimramon

Speculation, but it were a P320, there could be a potential drop safety failure.
Looking at some blogs and sites, there is a "voluntary upgrade" of the P320 issued by Sig.

Section 107

Officially, the truth is no, they may not always carry.

The regulations/policy and procedures make no distinction for federal LEOs or state/local LEOs.

One of the more important criteria I mentioned above, namely that the officer's duties require that s/he must have access to the weapon from the time when it would otherwise be checked to when it otherwise be collected after deplaning.

So as with non-federal LEOs if there is no stated need then no, a federal LEO may not fly armed.


However, as mentioned earlier, in practice, much deference is granted to Federal LEOs. Their "need" is interpreted quite broadly for Feds (e.g., to or from prisoner escort, to or from protective detail, surveillance, to or from reporting to another duty station armed and prepared for duty, etc.) or just otherwise ordered to always be armed and ready. They are also generally considered to be on duty all the time.

So in practice, once one has met the training and other requirements, they are pretty much always allowed to fly with access to their weapons.

Being on vacation should be an exception....

Boggie Dog

Guess there isn't much point in having rules for these people then, eh!

Loren Pechtel

It doesn't take much at all to develop 4g of impact force. A short distance plus a sudden stop is quite enough.

I've managed to do it in a couple of inches--weighing out stuff. Drop a bit on the scale and watch the weight momentarily jump a lot more than the weight of what you just added.

If what stops it has no give at all you'll get that 4g when the gun has fallen 4x the trigger pull distance.