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Electronic devices ban Europe to the US [merged threads]

Electronic devices ban Europe to the US [merged threads]

Old May 30, 17, 5:38 am
  #1081  
 
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Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much View Post
I still keep coming back to the rampant theft from checked luggage that will inevitably occur. I suspect a lot of us who need to travel with laptops will buy a hard case of some kind in which to pack the laptop. Of course, this will have to be opened back in the baggage areas. Rather than fight the ban or simply stop flying, most of us will spend our own money working around this idiocy. The terrorists win and DHS wins.
Don't most airports use CT scanning for checked baggage, CT scanning that the manufacturers claim finds explosives? If this magic scanning finds explosives, then why are there so many complaints about bags being opened and rifled, with liquids and powders being opening and improperly closed?

Buy a weapon, check it and your camera/laptop in the same case.
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Old May 30, 17, 7:46 am
  #1082  
 
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Originally Posted by petaluma1 View Post
Buy a weapon, check it and your camera/laptop in the same case.
Not an option for the majority of international flights (or some domestic flights).
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Old May 30, 17, 9:35 am
  #1083  
 
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Originally Posted by artemis View Post
Not an option for the majority of international flights (or some domestic flights).
'Tis true.
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Old May 30, 17, 10:05 am
  #1084  
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Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much View Post
I still keep coming back to the rampant theft from checked luggage that will inevitably occur. I suspect a lot of us who need to travel with laptops will buy a hard case of some kind in which to pack the laptop. Of course, this will have to be opened back in the baggage areas. Rather than fight the ban or simply stop flying, most of us will spend our own money working around this idiocy. The terrorists win and DHS wins.
I think your concerns of theft from checked luggage are well founded and if we are required to put our expensive electronics in checked luggage katie bar the door..

We already know that TSA refuses to take responsibility for theft from bags even when it is TSA that demands our bags not be secure. It doesn't really matter at that point if it is TSA, baggage handlers, or someone else. The end result will be the same, our electronics will be at risk due to actions by the TSA,
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Old May 30, 17, 10:26 am
  #1085  
 
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Originally Posted by RadioGirl View Post
You keep suggesting this 1+1 solution but I don't see how it addresses the risk. If a laptop is dangerous, it's dangerous. The only thing this would do is (theoretically) reduce the number of devices to be swabbed/scanned/whatever at the checkpoint, but (in practice) only for people who would otherwise have 3 or more devices. Is that really such a significant number of passengers that it reduces the checkpoint workload from "impossible" to "possible"?

If past evidence is anything to go by, they're that stupid.
The idea, as it has been explained to me, is that 1+1 is that it permits the swabbing of the devices and keeps that number to a fixed amount (and eliminates some of the borderline cases of what is a phone). The thing is that this ban (if implemented) applies to all electronic (electrical) devices, not just phones and laptops. It would hit razors, noise cancelling headsets, iPods, iPads, detachable hard drives, cameras, flashlights, etc. The average traveler right now probably travels with 4-5 devices that will be hit with the ban. So dropping it to simply 2 devices will make the throughput at the checkpoint more manageable. I do believe that they (DHS) believe that swabbing will detect the explosives. The other thing is that 2 devices gives the appearance of managed risk.

The longer this drags on the more it seems to me that the other stakeholders are doing their best to defer or modify the underlying ban that is proposed. However, the latest round of messaging that is appearing has me convinced that DHS is just going to act on its own and give the proverbial finger to the rest of the world.
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Old May 30, 17, 11:10 am
  #1086  
 
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Originally Posted by MSY-MSP View Post
The other thing is that 2 devices gives the appearance of managed risk.
DHS/TSA loves things like "1+1" because it gives the appearance of "doing something" without grinding global air travel to a halt (probably) and deflects any claim of confiscation back on the passenger "choosing" which device they get to keep. (e.g., TSA refutes claim that electronic toothbrush was confiscated by blaming passenger for insisting on bringing a phone.)

What I don't see is how 1+1 ever gets enforced at US checkpoints unless the ID-checker gives every passenger 2 stickers and TSA stations a screener at the x-ray exit to verify that every device off the belt has a sticker. Even then, if I'm traveling with someone else, I can make multiple trips in and out of the sterile area delivering 1+1 devices to my companion each time, and the only fix against that is 100% gate screening of bags and bodies for objects that can easily be hidden in clothing or a pocket (ipods, phones, hard drives). Enforcement overseas might be easier since I presume it's non-trivial to exit the airside of the terminal after going through (exit) passport control, though I've never tried it.

I doubt the government brains conceiving these things consciously realize that things like electric shavers, electric toothbrushes, laser pointers, flashlights, etc., exist. Let alone battery-less electronic/electronic devices that people do travel with for business (external hard drives, desktop PCs, projectors, test equipment large and small, development boards). They are only thinking about shiny newer consumer-oriented technologies (smartphones, tablets, mp3 players, GPS navigators, digital cameras, laptops) and forgetting that people have been flying with electric/electronic devices for decades. Whatever policy they conceive and implement will cause significant chaos due to consequences not considered.
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Old May 30, 17, 11:11 am
  #1087  
 
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Originally Posted by MSY-MSP View Post
The idea, as it has been explained to me, is that 1+1 is that it permits the swabbing of the devices and keeps that number to a fixed amount (and eliminates some of the borderline cases of what is a phone). The thing is that this ban (if implemented) applies to all electronic (electrical) devices, not just phones and laptops. It would hit razors, noise cancelling headsets, iPods, iPads, detachable hard drives, cameras, flashlights, etc. The average traveler right now probably travels with 4-5 devices that will be hit with the ban. So dropping it to simply 2 devices will make the throughput at the checkpoint more manageable. I do believe that they (DHS) believe that swabbing will detect the explosives. The other thing is that 2 devices gives the appearance of managed risk.

The longer this drags on the more it seems to me that the other stakeholders are doing their best to defer or modify the underlying ban that is proposed. However, the latest round of messaging that is appearing has me convinced that DHS is just going to act on its own and give the proverbial finger to the rest of the world.
Which seems so John Kelly-like from all I have read about him.
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Old May 30, 17, 11:13 am
  #1088  
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Originally Posted by studentff View Post
DHS/TSA loves things like "1+1" because it gives the appearance of "doing something" without grinding global air travel to a halt (probably) and deflects any claim of confiscation back on the passenger "choosing" which device they get to keep. (e.g., TSA refutes claim that electronic toothbrush was confiscated by blaming passenger for insisting on bringing a phone.)

What I don't see is how 1+1 ever gets enforced at US checkpoints unless the ID-checker gives every passenger 2 stickers and TSA stations a screener at the x-ray exit to verify that every device off the belt has a sticker. Even then, if I'm traveling with someone else, I can make multiple trips in and out of the sterile area delivering 1+1 devices to my companion each time, and the only fix against that is 100% gate screening of bags and bodies for objects that can easily be hidden in clothing or a pocket (ipods, phones, hard drives). Enforcement overseas might be easier since I presume it's non-trivial to exit the airside of the terminal after going through (exit) passport control, though I've never tried it.

I doubt the government brains conceiving these things consciously realize that things like electric shavers, electric toothbrushes, laser pointers, flashlights, etc., exist. Let alone battery-less electronic/electronic devices that people do travel with for business (external hard drives, desktop PCs, projectors, test equipment large and small, development boards). They are only thinking about shiny newer consumer-oriented technologies (smartphones, tablets, mp3 players, GPS navigators, digital cameras, laptops) and forgetting that people have been flying with electric/electronic devices for decades. Whatever policy they conceive and implement will cause significant chaos due to consequences not considered.
The government brains conceiving this stuff 1) are dinosaurs who don't have a clue what they are talking about and 2) clearly assume any burdensome regulations will be waived for themselves.
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Old May 30, 17, 11:26 am
  #1089  
 
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EU tells US: No ban

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...top-ban-238939

The U.S. today opted not to introduce a ban on bringing laptops into the cabins of flights to the U.S. from Europe, sources told POLITICO.
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Old May 30, 17, 11:38 am
  #1090  
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Originally Posted by petaluma1 View Post
The U.S. today opted not to introduce a ban on bringing laptops into the cabins of flights to the U.S. from Europe, sources told POLITICO.
^
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Old May 30, 17, 11:52 am
  #1091  
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Are they saying for now or for the foreseeable future?

The article talks about intensifying "technical talks" to find a "common solution," according to an EC official.

But "another source" said "future intelligence" could change the decision.

There's no official DHS statement being quoted in the article.

However there seems to be some antagonism between the US and EU:

Some security experts also raised concerns that a unilateral, U.S.-imposed ban would worsen relations between the United States and Europe, already strained by Trump's criticisms of Germany, his refusal to join the G7's statement supporting the Paris climate agreement, and U.S. leaks about last week's terrorist bombing in Manchester, England.

“Intelligence information sharing is more important now than it has ever been,” said Colin Clarke, a political scientist at the RAND Corp. “The fact that that [the electronics ban] is driving a wedge between countries is concerning.”
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Old May 30, 17, 12:16 pm
  #1092  
 
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Good. First step to stem the madness.
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Old May 30, 17, 12:21 pm
  #1093  
 
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Originally Posted by politico.com
The U.S. side took into account European concerns about the safety implications of storing devices with lithium batteries in aircraft cargo holds, a source with knowledge of the conversation said.
What an embarrassment that DHS has to be schooled by the Europeans on such a serious threat. I'd be interested to hear candid conversations among the Americans who have a real clue as to aviation safety -- FAA, NTSB, etc., -- as to what they think of the security-driven proposals pushed by DHS. My suspicion is that the real experts have little or no more power to influence DHS than the rest of us.
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Old May 30, 17, 12:47 pm
  #1094  
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Originally Posted by studentff View Post
What an embarrassment that DHS has to be schooled by the Europeans on such a serious threat. I'd be interested to hear candid conversations among the Americans who have a real clue as to aviation safety -- FAA, NTSB, etc., -- as to what they think of the security-driven proposals pushed by DHS. My suspicion is that the real experts have little or no more power to influence DHS than the rest of us.
I would suggest that DHS/TSA needs some schooling. DHS/TSA certainly doesn't come across as the experts they pretend to be.

Last edited by Boggie Dog; May 30, 17 at 1:57 pm
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Old May 30, 17, 1:05 pm
  #1095  
 
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Unfortunately, Business Insider has a story where they claim that the DHS spokesperson called the Politico story "absolutely wrong."

How do you think that they were able to get the story wrong? Is it possible that DHS changed their mind, or that they felt embarrassed about the spin of the story?

http://www.businessinsider.com/europ...ort-dhs-2017-5
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