cestmoi123

You're asking the wrong question. The RIGHT question is "if all the egates were replaced and instead staffed by however many Finnish Border Guards could be funded with the same annualized cost of the egates," would it be faster or slower.

GUWonder

Not really the wrong question, even as your question is exactly how the sales people posit it.

But it's not like installation and operating costs are the sole driver or even primary driver for installation and operation of these devices at all of the EU/Schengen airports of entry with them for most returning citizens. The right question is why are the delays for such passengers at passport control getting more frequently extreme after installation of these devices than they were before, even when controlling for passenger counts and border guard staffing levels.

cestmoi123

Actually, the RIGHT questions are

1. ARE the delays for such passengers at passport control getting more frequently extreme after installation of these devices than they were before? (Haven't seen you provide any actual evidence that the answer to this is yes. Evidence being something other than "take my word for it.")

2. Assuming that the delays ARE getting longer, ARE they getting longer even when controlling for passenger counts and border guard staffing levels?

GUWonder

The variance has increased in wait and processing times, and that is an issue too. And I'm fully aware of how to properly measure, including with regard to controlling for variables. I've even indicated such in my prior words in this thread. And I know what questions to ask when it comes to seeing what governments are being sold and how.

Even anecdotally-speaking as someone at EU/Schengen passport control more days than not in the past several years -- you could say LHR-CPH/CPH-LHR is my replacement for LGA-DCA -- I'm unfortunately not ending up as an outlier when it comes to the increased extremes in time measurements since the machines have been implemented.

Everyone here is welcome to try to source their own statistical answers if they believe man didn't land on the moon, that we're in a post-truth world or whatever else about what is going on at say LHR and CPH after the machines got turned on.

Even if the machines and their use by passengers were all as perfectly performed as by the most frequent of the machines' quickest users, the biometric match settings can speed up or slow things down.

I get it that a lot of people are paranoid and want FRT as tight as they like to keep out/control the "undesirables"; and I get that a lot of people are so enamored with technology -- or this technology to block/control -- that they want to believe, and/or sell the belief, that this technology hasn't come with any extra inconvenience for travelers in the main. I wish that crowd were right, but that crowd isn't yet.

cestmoi123

So, no answer to question 1 other than "take my word for it." Got it.

Well, my contacts (at the highest levels of multiple EU governments) have told me the real story: processing speeds have increased dramatically. When they see you coming into the airport, though, they turn the processing dial down to "glacial," because it amuses them to mess with you.

GUWonder

No. Get this from my earlier post: "Everyone here is welcome to try to source their own statistical answers if they believe man didn't land on the moon, that we're in a post-truth world or whatever else about what is going on at say LHR and CPH after the machines got turned on."

By the way, it's easy get to passport control at CPH, at HEL and even at LHR using the name Cest Moi on a boarding pass even for Jane or John Doe.

WilcoRoger

Ah, you were talking about entering Schengen. Then forget what I wrote about HEL - those were about exiting.

Entry at HEL - I don't remember a time when there were any queues either at the EU booths or the e-gates. You even have two points of entry - upstairs and downstairs. For non-EU pax, its different, especially when the flights from China arrive.

GUWonder

There is sometimes a line to enter EU/Schengen at HEL, but I rarely encounter them if coming in on a short-/medium-haul flight. On longer haul flights into HEL, that's sort of another situation.

But even when the flights from Asia come into HEL sort of bunched together, HEL's not messed up like LHR and at CPH when it comes to entry. At HEL, it's the exit from HEL that seems to be more variable than the entry.

LHR only has these machines for entry. The UK's exit controls for passengers departing by air don't include physical passport control checkpoints for all passengers departing the UK/IRL CTA. That's why the focus was more on entry (into EU/Schengen) than on exit.

cestmoi123

You made the claim that things have slowed down after the machines got turned on, it's incumbent on you to support it. Thus far, you haven't, in any way, shape, or form, other than to say that:

(a) things look slower to your when you've been there
(b) your contacts tell you that it's a general issue

Those assertions have exactly much validity as my assertion that senior EU officials (TOP men) have informed me that things are being slowed down only when you're in the airport, and that they've told your contacts to confirm your suspicions because they like messing with you.

GUWonder

No, it's beyond just your (a) and (b).

I can't supply you with everything I encounter. I've seen moon rocks too but it doesn't mean I can give them to you. Still, you're welcome to try on your own to find them to check them out to confirm or deny whatever you wish. Same goes for this. Go hang out at CPH or LHR passport control and start measuring things if this matters so much to you despite having no evidence that what I shared is inaccurate. I'd love to be wrong on this.

My mentions have more validity than your last paragraph above. Senior EU officials have no clue when all I am planning to show up (or am even at) passport control in the EU -- even if anyone else cared.

TravellingSalesman

That statement would imply that you have provided us with any statistical answers, which you have not.

So it's not like we're welcome to, we have to, because so far you've just given us vague words, not statistics.

If Nixon and subsequent presidents had simply given a TV address saying, we landed on the moon, no pictures, anything NASA does is classified then I'd have more sympathy for people who question it.

GUWonder

Who's stopping you from going to CPH or LHR to observe and measure what's going on at passport control? Unless and until you're stopped, you're welcome to do as suggested.

I'm very welcome at passport control at CPH and LHR whenever I wish to observe and measure, unless and until I'm stopped. Slowed down? Well, that's different than being stopped.

televisor

Every single experience at any FRT machine equipped airport has been rapid. I've often had to wait longer for the 3-4 people in front of me at manual-check airports.

My experiences at LHR before the machines existed were dire. (T5 can be dire regardless, but I managed to avoid that dungeon...)

Anecdata proves the machines are better.

GUWonder

Ever since a large bulk of LHR T5 premium passengers have been told to instead use the kiosks after their implementation, my fast track experience at LHR T5 has improved greatly there in terms of time measurements. Let's just say using UK RT membership -- which allows me to use the same kiosks as the average British citizen -- would delay me more times than not.

LHR was bad before the kiosks, and it's still bad. 30+% of border control officials at LHR T5 don't struggle to scan a EU/Schengen passport as fast as possible. Passengers at the machines are another story in terms of scanning a passport as fast as possible.

It's sort of cute how Accenture used numbers from the moment the scan took place successfully rather than the actual process from when a machine was first available to a waiting user. Then again their bread and butter came from helping to sell this.

Even Germany has had what, a 10+% rejection rate at the machines? Most of those persons were cleared for admission without being sent to secondary. The more complicated the flow map applicable to passengers seeking admission, the simpler and faster everything becomes? Not necessarily.

televisor

T5 has the old and essentially broken machines. T2, and all the EU airports I've seen, have the new machines that actually work well. Which was essentially my point: don't go through T5 unless you like wasting time. But the time wasting is not because of machines, it's because of those specific bad machines and bad organisation.

NZ also has those old machines. They just can't recognise me at all.