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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Automatic TSA Pre Check Assessments (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1771245-automatic-tsa-pre-check-assessments.html)

wormhole Jun 14, 2016 9:09 am

This new scheme explains why I got Precheck, both directions, for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I didn't realize it until I got to the airport on the first leg of the outbound flight and took a close look at my boarding passes to make sure I handed them the right one. Still had to take my shoes off because I was wearing steel toed shoes and they tripped the WTMD (to late to go home and change).

chollie Jun 14, 2016 9:14 am

It also explains why Pre and the background check were a farce from the beginning.

Pax can be securely vetted when they book a ticket with an approved airline.

All pax with approve airlines receive this vetting.

Pre pax are not guaranteed to pass this vetting.

Remind me again why anyone should pay $85 to give TSA information that is clearly not needed to adequately vet a pax for Pre privileges.

SNA_Flyer Jun 14, 2016 11:39 pm


Originally Posted by petaluma1 (Post 26774207)
It might not be Managed Inclusion according to the world of the TSA but it is managed inclusion nonetheless. TSA is just going about it in a different way to satisfy their critics.

Bingo. As far as I'm concerned, it's just another flavor of managed inclusion. Doesn't matter if they randomly select you, let a dog sniff you, or some some cursory background watchlist check. All the same, and just goes to show it's unnecessary to pay $$$ for.

gingersnaps Jun 15, 2016 9:36 am


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 26752876)
In the discussion of long TSA Security Lines I find it interesting that TSA claims "Managed Inclusion" has ended but are using Canines to move people to expedited screening. Also note how TSA is pushing hard for people to pony up their $85 per head to sign up for Pre Check.

What Government wouldn't want its people to sign up for surveillance?


I was unaware of the Automatic TSA Pre Check Assessments but have personally benefited from this selection method several times. It is this method that I believe TSA should use for the majority of Expedited Screening assignments. I also think that there is sufficient information available to TSA that a persons Risk Level can be determined when a ticket is purchased.
The automatic Precheck is how the convicted terrorist Sara Olson got Precheck.

The automatic system is also how in a family of 5 (2 adults, 3 children) the children will get Precheck but not the Parents.

I tend to agree with you that TSA has sufficient information - terrorist list, other list, secure flight to increase the population. A measure could be to block print at home boarding passes, this way a "sleeper" could not know ahead of time about Precheck status. Require all boarding passes to be printed at kiosks - day of departure.


Originally Posted by petaluma1 (Post 26753102)
However, we have yet to hear of anyone being moved to "expedited screening" after being sniffed.

Hidden in plain sight right in front of you. Your statement tend to suppose that "expedited screening" is a dedicated location or a marked Precheck lane. Have you ever experience the dog screening in a queue? If you have, think about the process you experience once past TDC.

chollie Jun 15, 2016 9:52 am


Originally Posted by gingersnaps (Post 26782309)
The automatic Precheck is how the convicted terrorist Sara Olson got Precheck.

If TSA did its job at the checkpoint and baggage handling, so what? She's no threat to me or anyone else at the airport or in the air.


Originally Posted by gingersnaps (Post 26782309)
The automatic system is also how in a family of 5 (2 adults, 3 children) the children will get Precheck but not the Parents.

This is just an example of TSA incompetency. It probably isn't even on a yards-long 'fix it' list. TSA is not about easing restrictions, it is about unnecessarily penalizing as many people as possible for whatever reason.


Originally Posted by gingersnaps (Post 26782309)
I tend to agree with you that TSA has sufficient information - terrorist list, other list, secure flight to increase the population. A measure could be to block print at home boarding passes, this way a "sleeper" could not know ahead of time about Precheck status. Require all boarding passes to be printed at kiosks - day of departure.

(bolding mine)

Absolutely not! We have been assured that full Pre screening is just as thorough as regular screening (how this is possible is not clear). We also know that Pre is not consistently offered at airports.

Requiring people to print BPs at the airport increases congestion and delay unnecessarily. It's also completely pointless if Pre isn't open and available - you just made people wait in line for no reason at all.

If someone has tampered with their BP, so what? According to TSA, every pax who transits the checkpoint is thoroughly screened, so unless there's some way to cause harm with a modified BP, there is no additional threat to aviation security.


Originally Posted by gingersnaps (Post 26782309)
Hidden in plain sight right in front of you. Your statement tend to suppose that "expedited screening" is a dedicated location or a marked Precheck lane. Have you ever experience the dog screening in a queue? If you have, think about the process you experience once past TDC.

This must be a trick question. I have been in a queue when the dogs went by. No one was shifted to another lane and processing was exactly the same as when the dogs weren't around.

petaluma1 Jun 15, 2016 9:56 am


Originally Posted by chollie (Post 26782394)
If TSA did its job at the checkpoint and baggage handling, so what? She's no threat to me or anyone else at the airport or in the air.



This is just an example of TSA incompetency. It probably isn't even on a yards-long 'fix it' list. TSA is not about easing restrictions, it is about unnecessarily penalizing as many people as possible for whatever reason.



(bolding mine)

Absolutely not! We have been assured that full Pre screening is just as thorough as regular screening (how this is possible is not clear). We also know that Pre is not consistently offered at airports.

Requiring people to print BPs at the airport increases congestion and delay unnecessarily. It's also completely pointless if Pre isn't open and available - you just made people wait in line for no reason at all.

If someone has tampered with their BP, so what? According to TSA, every pax who transits the checkpoint is thoroughly screened, so unless there's some way to cause harm with a modified BP, there is no additional threat to aviation security.



This must be a trick question. I have been in a queue when the dogs went by. No one was shifted to another lane and processing was exactly the same as when the dogs weren't around.

Thank you, Chollie. I logged in to respond to his comments with exactly the same thoughts as you expressed.

petaluma1 Jun 15, 2016 10:01 am


Originally Posted by gingersnaps (Post 26782309)
Hidden in plain sight right in front of you. Your statement tend to suppose that "expedited screening" is a dedicated location or a marked Precheck lane. Have you ever experience the dog screening in a queue? If you have, think about the process you experience once past TDC.

I have read of exactly one instance of where pax were allowed to keep their shoes on during screening because of the dogs. If you know of others, please enlighten us. All other reports indicate there was no change in screening.

gingersnaps Jun 15, 2016 10:04 am

We know that as of last year the success rate of a person(s) with nefarious intent was 95%. So "thoroughly screened" is a just a buzz phrase.

Precheck is not a "thorough are regular screening", shoes are not screened, laptops are not removed from bags, AIT is not utilized as the main screening, etc.

As for "this must be a trick question", you too are supposing that expedited screening requires a dedicated and marked location, must like Precheck lanes with the big blue TSA Pre signs.

gingersnaps Jun 15, 2016 10:08 am

Chollie and Petalum1,

You both are supposing that expedited screening is a dedicated AND marked location OR that it can only be conducted in a Precheck lane, which, also supposes that a Precheck screening lane is required to be dedicated and marked. What is it about Precheck that is "expedited", not removing shoes, jackets, laptops, liquids? Right?

I hear people ask, very frequently, "Do you we take shoes off here? At X airport we didn't and we were not Precheck."

Consider the following from TSA.gov and notice the absence of Precheck


Screening for Passengers 75 and Older

Passengers 75 and older can receive some form of expedited screening through risk-based intelligence-driven security that allows TSA to better focus resources on passengers who more likely pose a risk.
Screening Benefits

You may leave on your shoes and light jacket during screening.

If you alarm during security screening, you may be required to remove your shoes for further screening or undergo a pat-down. You can request to be seated during this portion of the screening.

Passengers 75 and older who are unable to stand for screening will be screened through other security methods.

Should you travel with medical devices and/or implants, other screening procedures may apply.
bolding added

And another regarding children


Screening your Child

Children 12 and under can leave their shoes, light jackets and headwear on during screening.
Children will not be separated from their parent/guardian.
Remove infants and children from their carriers and carry them in arms through the walk-through metal detector.
Modified screening procedures are in place to reduce the likelihood of a pat-down.
emphasis added

petaluma1 Jun 15, 2016 10:14 am


Originally Posted by gingersnaps (Post 26782451)
We know that as of last year the success rate of a person(s) with nefarious intent was 95%. So "thoroughly screened" is a just a buzz phrase.

It might be just a buzz phrase but it's one that TSA swears by and they use in each and every time someone gets on a plane without a propery boarding pass


Precheck is not a "thorough are regular screening", shoes are not screened, laptops are not removed from bags, AIT is not utilized as the main screening, etc.
According to you, but not according to the TSA.


As for "this must be a trick question", you too are supposing that expedited screening requires a dedicated and marked location, must like Precheck lanes with the big blue TSA Pre signs.
This is purely arguing for the sake of arguing, nit-picking if you will. Chollie and I both understand what was meant by "moved to expedited screening."

petaluma1 Jun 15, 2016 10:15 am


Originally Posted by gingersnaps (Post 26782475)
Chollie and Petalum1,

You both are supposing that expedited screening is a dedicated AND marked location OR that it can only be conducted in a Precheck lane, which, also supposes that a Precheck screening lane is required to be dedicated and marked.

I hear people ask, very frequently, "Do you we take shoes off here? At X airport we didn't and we were not Precheck."

Consider the following from TSA.gov and notice the absence of Precheck

bolding added

And another regarding children

emphasis added

No, you are saying that we are saying it.

GRALISTAIR Jun 15, 2016 10:17 am


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 26752876)
Apparently Pre Check Expedited Screening is TSA's answer to long security lines, not modifying wasteful time consuming procedures and processes that offer little security benefit.

:D^

chollie Jun 15, 2016 10:19 am


Originally Posted by gingersnaps (Post 26782451)
We know that as of last year the success rate of a person(s) with nefarious intent was 95%. So "thoroughly screened" is a just a buzz phrase.

Precheck is not a "thorough are regular screening", shoes are not screened, laptops are not removed from bags, AIT is not utilized as the main screening, etc.

As for "this must be a trick question", you too are supposing that expedited screening requires a dedicated and marked location, must like Precheck lanes with the big blue TSA Pre signs.

No, you misunderstood me, and you have also completely lost me.

I get that the Pre experience that is marketed for $85 and shown on expensive Pre signs at airports is often a 'bait-and-switch'. I get that some FSDs don't like and refuse to support Pre. I get that sometimes all you get for $85 is zero, nothing. I get that sometimes 'Pre' means you stand in line in a regular line for 45 minutes, and then (maybe) you get to keep your shoes on.

I've experienced the dogs two ways.

1) Dedicated Pre lane + regular lane. Dog walked up and down all lines. Pax in the regular line continue to fully disrobe and unpack. No pax were moved from one line to the other. Pax in the Pre line got their hands swabbed.

2) Pre closed, regular lanes only. Dog went up and down all lines and left. All pax required to disrobe and unpack.

Clearly the only purposes of the dogs I witnessed were one or more of the following: 1) excuse to promote someone to a higher pay bracket, 2) excuse to claim that landside congestion won't lead to a Brussels disaster because the dogs have cleared the area. They certainly did absolutely nothing to expedite screening.

Perhaps you have witnessed a different scenario. I believe Petaluma1 has witnessed the dogs being used to clear people to keep their shoes on. I've just described what I've witnessed.

gingersnaps Jun 15, 2016 10:20 am


Originally Posted by petaluma1 (Post 26782513)
No, you are saying that we are saying it.

It would seem, based on TSA statements, that expedited screening is a process. My anecdotes of people claiming expedited screening at one airport, even though they did not have Precheck, supports the notion that expedited screening is process that can occur at on any lane screening lane. It also supports the notion that the expedited process can occur unbeknownst to the recipient - that is, there isn't a big blue TSA PRE sign marking the way to the dedicated Precheck lane.

petaluma1 Jun 15, 2016 10:27 am


Originally Posted by chollie (Post 26782536)
No, you misunderstood me, and you have also completely lost me.

I get that the Pre experience that is marketed for $85 and shown on expensive Pre signs at airports is often a 'bait-and-switch'. I get that some FSDs don't like and refuse to support Pre. I get that sometimes all you get for $85 is zero, nothing. I get that sometimes 'Pre' means you stand in line in a regular line for 45 minutes, and then (maybe) you get to keep your shoes on.

I've experienced the dogs two ways.

1) Dedicated Pre lane + regular lane. Dog walked up and down all lines. Pax in the regular line continue to fully disrobe and unpack. No pax were moved from one line to the other. Pax in the Pre line got their hands swabbed.

2) Pre closed, regular lanes only. Dog went up and down all lines and left. All pax required to disrobe and unpack.

Clearly the only purposes of the dogs I witnessed were one or more of the following: 1) excuse to promote someone to a higher pay bracket, 2) excuse to claim that landside congestion won't lead to a Brussels disaster because the dogs have cleared the area. They certainly did absolutely nothing to expedite screening.

Perhaps you have witnessed a different scenario. I believe Petaluma1 has witnessed the dogs being used to clear people to keep their shoes on. I've just described what I've witnessed.

The dogs serve only a PR purpose for the most part. It's interesting to note that AskTSA has stopped claiming the dogs speed up the screening process.

I have not experienced the dogs; however, I did get a tweet that said pax in regular lines who were sniffed were all treated like Pre:



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