Why is No One Asking if the Paris Terrorists Could have Obtained ESTA Clearance?
Nov 19, 2015, 4:35 pm
#1
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Why is No One Asking if the Paris Terrorists Could have Obtained ESTA Clearance?
It seems to me while politicians and the press are focusing on the remote (and fairly unlikely) scenario that a Syrian refugee after being vetted by the US would commit a terrorist act in the US, no one is asking the far more relevant question - would the Paris terrorists have been given ESTA clearance to fly to the US on their French/Belgian passports had they gone online and made the application two weeks ago?
My assumption is also that if you are on the no-fly list you will not get ESTA clearance (could be wrong about that), so if you get ESTA you are good to fly (unless additional information gets into the database between the ESTA issuance and the date of flight.)
It seems to me that the answer to that question would tell us a lot about the effectiveness of whatever anti-terrorist screening the government thinks it has in place.
(The Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam plane diversion incident was in 2004, before the implementation of ESTA.)
My assumption is also that if you are on the no-fly list you will not get ESTA clearance (could be wrong about that), so if you get ESTA you are good to fly (unless additional information gets into the database between the ESTA issuance and the date of flight.)
It seems to me that the answer to that question would tell us a lot about the effectiveness of whatever anti-terrorist screening the government thinks it has in place.
(The Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam plane diversion incident was in 2004, before the implementation of ESTA.)
Nov 19, 2015, 6:37 pm
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Some of them would have had their ESTA applications clear and would be able to fly to the US if using their own ID. Also some had access to real passports in other people's names that would not be stopped by the ESTA process.
There is a market in real passports where people buy real passports with real people's names which have not been flagged, and they do so by going for passports/people where the face is considered a close enough match.
[Syrian refugees are headed to the US via Latin America. And once they show up at the US border, they generally have a legitimate claim, under US law, to be allowed in the US with refugee status. Very few highly capable terrorists have any need to claim to be refugees in order to move around internationally; more of them would rather have huge refugee camps where they could get in and pick and choose people to groom into becoming violent extremists than to pretend to be a refugee in order to get into the US.]]
There is a market in real passports where people buy real passports with real people's names which have not been flagged, and they do so by going for passports/people where the face is considered a close enough match.
[Syrian refugees are headed to the US via Latin America. And once they show up at the US border, they generally have a legitimate claim, under US law, to be allowed in the US with refugee status. Very few highly capable terrorists have any need to claim to be refugees in order to move around internationally; more of them would rather have huge refugee camps where they could get in and pick and choose people to groom into becoming violent extremists than to pretend to be a refugee in order to get into the US.]]
Last edited by GUWonder; Nov 19, 2015 at 6:48 pm
Nov 19, 2015, 6:41 pm
#3
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Putting aside using someone else's passport - apparently most if not all of the perpetrators were known to the French government. What I'm wondering is if that information would have been shared with the Americans, and whether the Americans would have denied them ESTA (under their real names) on that basis.
Some of them would have had their ESTA applications clear and would be able to fly to the US. Also some had access to real passports that would not be stopped by the ESTA process.
There is a market in real passports where people buy real passports with real people's names which have not been flagged, and they do so by going for passports/people where the face is considered a close enough match.
There is a market in real passports where people buy real passports with real people's names which have not been flagged, and they do so by going for passports/people where the face is considered a close enough match.
Nov 19, 2015, 6:49 pm
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Putting aside using someone else's passport - apparently most if not all of the perpetrators were known to the French government. What I'm wondering is if that information would have been shared with the Americans, and whether the Americans would have denied them ESTA (under their real names) on that basis.
This may be of interest to you, even as somethings have changed since then: http://www.aci-na.org/content/gao-re...waiver-program
GAO found that while 98 percent of VWP travelers in 2010 complied with the ESTA requirement, airlines still transported approximately 364,000 travelers who did not have the required ESTA approval. GAO noted that DHS has not conducted a review to asses any potential risks this may present.
In order to participate in the VWP, countries must sign three information sharing agreements with the US. While almost all of the 36 VWP countries have signed an agreement to share lost or stolen passport data, only about half have signed either the agreement to share terrorist watch list data or provide access to biographical, biometric or criminal history data. GAO notes that DHS has established a compliance schedule to ensure that all VWP countries have signed the agreements by June, 2012 and has established measures to be taken (although short of removal from the program) should they not meet the deadline.
Finally, DHS is required to complete biennial reports on each VWP country evaluating the security risk of that country remaining in the program. GAO found that DHS had not completed 18 of the 36 reports and many of the completed reports were over a year late. DHS stated that they often do not receive the intelligence information they require to complete the reports in a timely manner.
GAO recommended that DHS establish a timeframe to review cases of ESTA non-compliance and take steps to address the delays in the biennial review process. DHS agreed with both recommendations.
The full GAO report can be found here: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11335.pdf.
In order to participate in the VWP, countries must sign three information sharing agreements with the US. While almost all of the 36 VWP countries have signed an agreement to share lost or stolen passport data, only about half have signed either the agreement to share terrorist watch list data or provide access to biographical, biometric or criminal history data. GAO notes that DHS has established a compliance schedule to ensure that all VWP countries have signed the agreements by June, 2012 and has established measures to be taken (although short of removal from the program) should they not meet the deadline.
Finally, DHS is required to complete biennial reports on each VWP country evaluating the security risk of that country remaining in the program. GAO found that DHS had not completed 18 of the 36 reports and many of the completed reports were over a year late. DHS stated that they often do not receive the intelligence information they require to complete the reports in a timely manner.
GAO recommended that DHS establish a timeframe to review cases of ESTA non-compliance and take steps to address the delays in the biennial review process. DHS agreed with both recommendations.
The full GAO report can be found here: http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11335.pdf.
Last edited by GUWonder; Nov 19, 2015 at 6:56 pm
Nov 20, 2015, 5:27 am
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http://www.cbsnews.com/news/paris-at...aiver-program/
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/pol...ors_picks=true
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...lawmakers-say/
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/pol...ors_picks=true
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...lawmakers-say/
Last edited by GUWonder; Nov 20, 2015 at 5:33 am
Nov 20, 2015, 8:34 pm
#6
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Supposedly we are better about putting real terrorism suspects on the no fly lists than we used to be (where the IC decided that putting them on said lists would give away the fact we were watching them).
The nonsense about restricting or eliminating the VWP--spoken by both Democrats and Republicans--is just that: nonsense.
The nonsense about restricting or eliminating the VWP--spoken by both Democrats and Republicans--is just that: nonsense.
Nov 20, 2015, 9:17 pm
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Supposedly we are better about putting real terrorism suspects on the no fly lists than we used to be (where the IC decided that putting them on said lists would give away the fact we were watching them).
The nonsense about restricting or eliminating the VWP--spoken by both Democrats and Republicans--is just that: nonsense.
The nonsense about restricting or eliminating the VWP--spoken by both Democrats and Republicans--is just that: nonsense.
Restricting the VWP further has happened and is happening. The USG useS the VWP as leverage to get (or to provide cover for getting) VWP countries to introduce security and data sharing facilitation measures that the USG wants. There is horse trading that goes on, but it's still as I said.
The VWP won't be eliminated, but restricting its use more than is already in play? That I expect to again happen this year.
Nov 22, 2015, 8:46 pm
#8
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Thanks for keeping this in the practical room and not OMNI
This is a fascinating discussion and I appreciate keeping it on a practical level. Thanks.
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Nov 30, 2015, 12:10 pm
#9
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Changes announced.
http://www.npr.org/2015/11/30/457889...waiver-program
"New Changes Announced Today
"Given the terrorist attacks in Paris and the ongoing threat posed by foreign terrorist fighters, the United States is aggressively strengthening its Visa Waiver Program and bolstering our relationships with VWP partners by immediately moving forward on the following administrative actions:
"· DHS will immediately take steps to modify its Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) applications to capture information from VWP travelers regarding any past travel to countries constituting a terrorist safe haven. The Director of National Intelligence, in coordination with the Secretary of Homeland Security, will identify and regularly review these countries so that traveler risk assessments can be made on the most up-to-date information.
"· The Department of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and other appropriate agencies will accelerate its review process for VWP partner countries and within 60 days, will provide a full report to the President:
"· Identifying possible pilot programs designed to assess the collection and use of biometrics (fingerprints and/or photographs) in the VWP to effectively increase security; and
"· Identifying any countries that are deficient in key areas of cooperation, along with recommended options to engender compliance using a range of penalties and incentives available under his current authority including the more frequent submission of ESTAs and/or the suspension of ESTA issuances (new and/or renewals) for citizens of countries that fail to meet key metrics.
"· The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation will evaluate the terrorism information sharing that occurs between the United States and VWP countries, in consultation with the Director of National Intelligence and the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security, and provide a report to the President of the United States within 60 days identifying options to mitigate any deficiencies.
"· DHS will offer assistance to countries to better facilitate terrorism information sharing, specifically to include biometric pilots. For example, DHS and the Terrorist Screening Center will assist all interested VWP countries in screening refugees or asylum seekers, including through the application of extensive terrorism information already provided to VWP members and through piloting capability for conducting near real time biometric checks.
"· The Secretaries of DHS, State, and Commerce will promote the Global Entry program among VWP partners to further expand this trusted traveler program, which includes biometrics.
"· The Secretary of Homeland Security will work with Congress to seek authority to increase Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) fines from $5,000 to $50,000 for air carriers that fail to verify a traveler's passport data.
"· The Departments of Homeland Security and State, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and U.S. intelligence community elements will deploy Foreign Fighter Surge Teams to work with countries to counter terrorist travel.
"· The Departments of Homeland Security and State will encourage and provide assistance as needed to enhance border security and legislation related to FTFs of our partner countries, and encourage more robust information sharing, better use of shared information, and more effective and efficient coordination between our partners."
"Given the terrorist attacks in Paris and the ongoing threat posed by foreign terrorist fighters, the United States is aggressively strengthening its Visa Waiver Program and bolstering our relationships with VWP partners by immediately moving forward on the following administrative actions:
"· DHS will immediately take steps to modify its Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) applications to capture information from VWP travelers regarding any past travel to countries constituting a terrorist safe haven. The Director of National Intelligence, in coordination with the Secretary of Homeland Security, will identify and regularly review these countries so that traveler risk assessments can be made on the most up-to-date information.
"· The Department of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Secretary of State and other appropriate agencies will accelerate its review process for VWP partner countries and within 60 days, will provide a full report to the President:
"· Identifying possible pilot programs designed to assess the collection and use of biometrics (fingerprints and/or photographs) in the VWP to effectively increase security; and
"· Identifying any countries that are deficient in key areas of cooperation, along with recommended options to engender compliance using a range of penalties and incentives available under his current authority including the more frequent submission of ESTAs and/or the suspension of ESTA issuances (new and/or renewals) for citizens of countries that fail to meet key metrics.
"· The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation will evaluate the terrorism information sharing that occurs between the United States and VWP countries, in consultation with the Director of National Intelligence and the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security, and provide a report to the President of the United States within 60 days identifying options to mitigate any deficiencies.
"· DHS will offer assistance to countries to better facilitate terrorism information sharing, specifically to include biometric pilots. For example, DHS and the Terrorist Screening Center will assist all interested VWP countries in screening refugees or asylum seekers, including through the application of extensive terrorism information already provided to VWP members and through piloting capability for conducting near real time biometric checks.
"· The Secretaries of DHS, State, and Commerce will promote the Global Entry program among VWP partners to further expand this trusted traveler program, which includes biometrics.
"· The Secretary of Homeland Security will work with Congress to seek authority to increase Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) fines from $5,000 to $50,000 for air carriers that fail to verify a traveler's passport data.
"· The Departments of Homeland Security and State, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and U.S. intelligence community elements will deploy Foreign Fighter Surge Teams to work with countries to counter terrorist travel.
"· The Departments of Homeland Security and State will encourage and provide assistance as needed to enhance border security and legislation related to FTFs of our partner countries, and encourage more robust information sharing, better use of shared information, and more effective and efficient coordination between our partners."
Nov 30, 2015, 12:14 pm
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DHS will immediately take steps to modify its Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) applications to capture information from VWP travelers regarding any past travel to countries constituting a terrorist safe haven.
I guess that will work so long as the potential terrorists made sure to notify the US government that they were entering and leaving Syria.
Nov 30, 2015, 12:46 pm
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I like this one:
DHS will immediately take steps to modify its Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) applications to capture information from VWP travelers regarding any past travel to countries constituting a terrorist safe haven.
I guess that will work so long as the potential terrorists made sure to notify the US government that they were entering and leaving Syria.
DHS will immediately take steps to modify its Electronic System for Travel Authorization (ESTA) applications to capture information from VWP travelers regarding any past travel to countries constituting a terrorist safe haven.
I guess that will work so long as the potential terrorists made sure to notify the US government that they were entering and leaving Syria.
Nov 30, 2015, 12:50 pm
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Given that there are no controls going into Syria, I would think that anyone identified by an intelligence service as having been in Syria (or Libya) would already be on a watch list - which I would hope would already prevent an ESTA issuance.
Nov 30, 2015, 2:11 pm
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There are also people from VWP countries who have relatives who are sick or die of even natural causes in conflict zones and some such persons do attend to family care responsibilities and/or family funeral attendance in such places. Many such people are still eligible for ESTA and are also not being hit by haraSSSSment boarding passes or by no-fly lists.
I was under the impression that there are still some customs and migration checks at some Syrian-government-operated ports of entry-exit.
Dec 1, 2015, 8:16 am
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Before worrying too much about ETSA, complete the online DS-160 form for a B1/B2 visa. It really isn't that strenuous and they can't require interviews for 100% of the applicants. Moreover, what would an interview accomplish. The terrorist would shave, dress appropriately, and tell the right lies.
Dec 1, 2015, 10:12 am
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Before worrying too much about ETSA, complete the online DS-160 form for a B1/B2 visa. It really isn't that strenuous and they can't require interviews for 100% of the applicants. Moreover, what would an interview accomplish. The terrorist would shave, dress appropriately, and tell the right lies.
The "interview" includes biometric capture and examination by the USG prior to getting on a US-bound plane -- that doesn't happen with ESTA users.
Providing lies in-person after an application submission is not the same thing as providing lies on an electronic application form. The chances of catching the lies is different.
It's rather obvious that the USG worries about ESTA users -- case in point being the recent publicly-announced revisions to the program as indicated in post #9 in this thread.