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-   -   Light hearted TSA agents (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1710146-light-hearted-tsa-agents.html)

bluesmoon Sep 15, 2015 9:27 am

Light hearted TSA agents
 
Incident 1: At ID check for an early morning flight, wearing a tech company T-Shirt that looks a lot like Minecraft, agent checks my ID, looks at me and says, "how many XP?", and I'm a little startled because while I get the lingo, I don't quite remember which T-shirt I put on. He says, "Minecraft, yeah?" and waves me off to the shortest line.

Incident 2: Was flying out of Logan (BOS) wearing my favourite Big Bang Theory T-Shirt. Went through the TSA-Pre line for security with my regular carry-on. It's a low traffic period, and the agent at the X-Ray looks at me straight faced and says, you can't take this bag through.

I look at her stunned and say that I've never had a problem before, but she insists, "I can't allow it!", then her expression completely changes and she goes "Bazinga!"

Incident 3: At the international terminal agent walking up and down the line rattling out instructions regarding laptops, liquids, shoes, etc., except he's also trying to determine the nationality of everyone in the line and repeating the instructions in their language. English, Spanish, French, German... we ask him how many languages he can cover, and he goes on to list a variety including Hindi, Italian and Portuguese.

Incident 4: At SFO ID check flying back to BOS, agent looks at my newly issued MA license and says, "Hey, I just moved here from Boston, how's the winter treating you?"

Hite Sep 15, 2015 10:56 am

Light hearted TSA agents
 
I always get a hard time during football season wearing my Chicago Bears shirts from packer fans or some commiseration from fellow Bear fans.

One gave me the heart stopping moment like you with "I'm sorry sir but I can't let you through like that..."

DaveBlaine Sep 15, 2015 11:07 am

I think this is a great post to show that they are people too. They're just like you and me. They have feelings and families and they are just there to make air travel safer.

ysolde Sep 15, 2015 11:15 am

I am in a wheelchair, so I get the pat-down every time I travel. One time, after the pat-down, the TSA officer asked if she could help me put my shoes back on. I told her I would appreciate it. She picked up a shoe, and noticed it was a Manolo. She said, "Look at you, wearing your Manolos, just like Carrie Bradshaw! Now where's Mr. Big?"

Efrem Sep 15, 2015 11:44 am


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25429102)
I think this is a great post to show that they are people too. They're just like you and me. They have feelings and families and they are just there to make air travel safer.

If only the last sentence were so ... I was once told to throw out a half-empty, originally 4.2-ounce tube of toothpaste. (I was willing to squeeze some of it into my mouth to confirm that its contents were what they claimed to be.) I said something to the effect of "If you think throwing out this toothpaste will make air travel safer, out it goes." The agent replied "What I think, or what we both think, isn't the issue. My instructions are not to let it through. It's not worth my job to make an exception." (Going further into whether they're there for security or not would likely get this thread detoured into the safety/security forum in short order. I only mention this anecdote to suggest some of the constraints they work under and how they understand their position, not to start a debate.)

That said, I've had several interactions that prove your point about agents having feelings (and a sense of humor) - including one who made an all-in-fun attempt to "confiscate" my brand-new 17" MacBook Pro. Clearly, he appreciates the finer things in life!

DaveBlaine Sep 15, 2015 11:51 am


Originally Posted by Efrem (Post 25429319)
If only the last sentence were so ... I was once told to throw out a half-empty, originally 4.2-ounce tube of toothpaste. (I was willing to squeeze some of it into my mouth to confirm that its contents were what they claimed to be.) I said something to the effect of "If you think throwing out this toothpaste will make air travel safer, out it goes." The agent replied "What I think, or what we both think, isn't the issue. My instructions are not to let it through. It's not worth my job to make an exception." (Going further into whether they're there for security or not would likely get this thread detoured into the safety/security forum in short order. I only mention this anecdote to suggest some of the constraints they work under and how they understand their position, not to start a debate.)

That said, I've had several interactions that prove your point about agents having feelings (and a sense of humor) - including one who made an all-in-fun attempt to "confiscate" my brand-new 17" MacBook Pro. Clearly, he appreciates the finer things in life!

"Just following orders" is the greatest alibi a person can have. :)

Big4Flyer Sep 15, 2015 11:54 am


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25429102)
I think this is a great post to show that they are people too. They're just like you and me. They have feelings and families and they are just there to make air travel safer.

Totally agree, except for the part about how they're there to make air travel safer. I imagine most of them are probably there to collect a paycheck and I appreciate it they are down-to-earth enough to realize that instead of seeing themselves as frontline warriors on the battle against terrorism.

The best experiences I've had with TSA are when they are kind and unobtrusive, and I've particularly appreciated it when they've taken the time to say hi to my 3 year old when flying and sometimes give him one of their little "sticker badges." While I'm far from a fan of the TSA as an organization, I am a fan of those who work there who may air travel a little more humane

Flaneurs Sep 15, 2015 12:42 pm

Light hearted TSA agents
 
I had a similar experience with a TSA officer trying to confiscate my Sarah Bernhardt cookies at JFK, then smiling and saying "no just kidding" and letting me through. I agree they are human, at least some of them.

DaveBlaine Sep 15, 2015 2:25 pm


Originally Posted by Flaneurs (Post 25429615)
I had a similar experience with a TSA officer trying to confiscate my Sarah Bernhardt cookies at JFK, then smiling and saying "no just kidding" and letting me through. I agree they are human, at least some of them.

My God. I had to read this twice to make sure Sandra Bernhard didn't have a line of cookies out. ;)

www.sandrabernhard.com

Ocn Vw 1K Sep 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Please follow the thread as it moves to the apt travel security forum. Ocn Vw 1K, Moderator, TravelBuzz.

WillCAD Sep 15, 2015 8:57 pm


Originally Posted by bluesmoon (Post 25428584)
Incident 1: At ID check for an early morning flight, wearing a tech company T-Shirt that looks a lot like Minecraft, agent checks my ID, looks at me and says, "how many XP?", and I'm a little startled because while I get the lingo, I don't quite remember which T-shirt I put on. He says, "Minecraft, yeah?" and waves me off to the shortest line.

Incident 2: Was flying out of Logan (BOS) wearing my favourite Big Bang Theory T-Shirt. Went through the TSA-Pre line for security with my regular carry-on. It's a low traffic period, and the agent at the X-Ray looks at me straight faced and says, you can't take this bag through.

I look at her stunned and say that I've never had a problem before, but she insists, "I can't allow it!", then her expression completely changes and she goes "Bazinga!"

Incident 3: At the international terminal agent walking up and down the line rattling out instructions regarding laptops, liquids, shoes, etc., except he's also trying to determine the nationality of everyone in the line and repeating the instructions in their language. English, Spanish, French, German... we ask him how many languages he can cover, and he goes on to list a variety including Hindi, Italian and Portuguese.

Incident 4: At SFO ID check flying back to BOS, agent looks at my newly issued MA license and says, "Hey, I just moved here from Boston, how's the winter treating you?"

Impressive job skill for someone who works in an international terminal. Would be nice if TSA had such people in every airport. It would certainly ease the process for a lot of international visitors.


Originally Posted by Hite (Post 25429050)
I always get a hard time during football season wearing my Chicago Bears shirts from packer fans or some commiseration from fellow Bear fans.

One gave me the heart stopping moment like you with "I'm sorry sir but I can't let you through like that..."


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25429102)
I think this is a great post to show that they are people too. They're just like you and me. They have feelings and families and they are just there to make air travel safer.

Certainly, they are human beings. Only human beings can be so cluelessly cruel when in a position of authority over others.

As frequent fliers, many FTers tend to forget that flying is a terrifying experience for some people. Those with an irrational fear of flying will be outright traumatized by such a poor-taste joke as the old, "You can't go through - just kidding!" crap.

It may seem like a trivial thing, but to those who are already on the edge of a panic attack before boarding a plane, it's not.

cirqueboy Sep 15, 2015 11:11 pm

Light hearted TSA agents
 
At the security checkpoint in Bangor, ME, 0600 on a Sunday morning. I Produce my Australian Passport as ID.

TSA guy just starts laughing at me and then calls out to the other TSA "this kangaroo's a long way from home mate".

markraby Sep 15, 2015 11:37 pm

I have a very unique TSA story. I was *walking* to the TTN airport (Trenton NJ), which isn't exactly pedestrian friendly. About 3/4 of a mile away from the terminal (right at the entrance to the airport grounds), a sweet middle-aged lady pulls up and offers me a ride to the terminal. Then I notice she's wearing a TSA outfit. She drops me off right in front of the passenger drop off before going to park the car for herself. We had a quick chat about how her profession is under appreciated but she still tries to be friendly to every passenger she encounters. Looking back it sounds weird, but she couldn't have been nicer about it.

FliesWay2Much Sep 16, 2015 12:26 am

Light hearted TSA agents
 
Sorry - Anyone wearing a TSA fake cop uniform is guilty by association of rubbing our precious Constitution in our noses. They and their civilian-clothed coworkers deserve our contempt. You've got to kill this cancer that is the TSA from the bottom up, one clerk at a time.

Dovster Sep 16, 2015 12:46 am


Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much (Post 25432356)
Sorry - Anyone wearing a TSA fake cop uniform is guilty by association of rubbing our precious Constitution in our noses. They and their civilian-clothed coworkers deserve our contempt. You've got to kill this cancer that is the TSA from the bottom up, one clerk at a time.

Ah, yes, a large dose of bitter hatred is always a good way to destroy a feel-good thread.

GUWonder Sep 16, 2015 3:29 am


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25429102)
I think this is a great post to show that they are people too. They're just like you and me. They have feelings and families and they are just there to make air travel safer.

TSA employees are just there to make air travel safer? That's funny, in more than one way. I would have thought that many are there because they fancy being on the federal dole/payroll. If not, some seem to like the pseudo-cop uniforms and pseudo-cop tin badges and play "respect my authorita!". Ain't that funny.

People are people, but that doesn't put them off limits for being subject to due criticism or praise -- not that there is much to praise about the TSA other that it is to be praised for becoming as large and expensive as it has become without any evidence of having made air travel safer in any statistically significant way.

WillCAD Sep 16, 2015 3:53 am


Originally Posted by Dovster (Post 25432403)
Ah, yes, a large dose of bitter hatred is always a good way to destroy a feel-good thread.

It's hard to feel good about people who work for an agency that you despise. TSA as an organization is all about paranoia and abuse, built on the faulty premise that air travel is in constant, ever-changing danger at every turn - a premise so faulty that the agency has engaged in constant mission creek over most of its existence merely to justify its existence.

It's a bad agency, and although there are good people who work for it, they're still complicit in the bad stuff that the agency does.

I have no more interest in a light-hearted joke from a TSO than I do from an IRS auditor who is pouring through my finances, looking for evidence that I have 'stolen' money from the government, or from a firefighter who is wetting down the ashes of my childhood home.

Dovster Sep 16, 2015 3:57 am


Originally Posted by WillCAD (Post 25432812)
It's hard to feel good about people who work for an agency that you despise.

There are hundreds of threads on TS&S where people spill their bile about the TSA. It is not necessary to do so on one of the rare threads which someone started with a different purpose.

GUWonder Sep 16, 2015 4:01 am


Originally Posted by Dovster (Post 25432822)
There are hundreds of threads on TS&S where people spill their bile about the TSA. It is not necessary to do so on one of the rare threads which someone started with a different purpose.

There is some kind of requirement for non-"bile about the TSA" threads to be about non-"bile about the TSA"? Flip sides of the same coin.

Should "bile about the TSA" threads be free of criticism of "bile about the TSA"? Who wants to cry me a river of bile. ;)

mikeef Sep 16, 2015 6:05 am


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25430175)
My God. I had to read this twice to make sure Sandra Bernhard didn't have a line of cookies out. ;)

www.sandrabernhard.com

Had you not mentioned that, I would have gone on thinking that she does have a line of cookies! You get a Tommy Point.

I had a nice chat with a TSO at DCA about Greek mythology. He told me that he had a BA in philosophy but was having a hard time getting a job.

As for the secondary discussion on this thread, I've spewed a fair amount of vitriol on these boards and dished out praise where it was due. In general, the vitriol is toward the agency as a while. I'm mixed when it comes to individuals. I'll say what I've said before: 80% of the employees are fine. I have little interaction with them and I'm sure they're just trying to get through the day and earn a paycheck. 10% are superstars who go above and beyond. And 10% are the dregs of society who like the power that comes with the job and take the occasion to make people miserable.

The biggest problem is at the organizational level, where it seems that the TSA exists for the sole purpose of self-perpetuation, with a healthy dose of security theater.

Mike

WillCAD Sep 16, 2015 6:16 am


Originally Posted by Dovster (Post 25432822)
There are hundreds of threads on TS&S where people spill their bile about the TSA. It is not necessary to do so on one of the rare threads which someone started with a different purpose.

Well, sure, but once a thread is relocated to the TSS debate forum, it's open season.

Have you ever tried to start an online thread about how some IRS auditors, or repo men, or bill collections agents, are really lovely people with a light-hearted sense of humor? I think you'd get the same reactions.

I know that most TSOs are perfectly ordinary people who didn't take the job to abuse others, they took it because they wanted a job, and TSA was hiring. In fact, I've had a number of quite pleasant interactions with TSOs over the years, and never had one worthy of sending a complaint.

But even so, I think the humor listed in the first couple of posts of this thread is highly inappropriate to the serious nature of the job. I find the "We're going to have to search your bag" and "you can't bring that through" jokes to be totally inappropriate. There is no humor in them whatsoever, hence my negative reaction.

Now, if you want to start a thread that showcases TSOs reacting to stupid travelers with aplomb - or vice versa - I wouldn't have a problem with that. There is plenty of light-hearted material to be found when dealing with TSA, and not all of it reflects negatively on the agency. But this crap does, and that's why it's not funny.

DaveBlaine Sep 16, 2015 6:47 am


Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much (Post 25432356)
Sorry - Anyone wearing a TSA fake cop uniform is guilty by association of rubbing our precious Constitution in our noses. They and their civilian-clothed coworkers deserve our contempt. You've got to kill this cancer that is the TSA from the bottom up, one clerk at a time.

[Moderator's note: Poster had originally altered the quote as follows: They ... deserve our contempt. You've got to kill...the TSA...one clerk at a time. The full quote has been restored above because editing another member's text to change its meaning is not allowed.]

Wow!

Who else should we advocate killing? Police? The elderly? The disabled?

Or would putting them in "re-education" camps be enough?

DaveBlaine Sep 16, 2015 6:50 am


Originally Posted by mikeef (Post 25433105)
You get a Tommy Point.

Mike

Thank you! :D

GUWonder Sep 16, 2015 6:58 am


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25433261)
Wow!

Who else should we advocate killing? Police? The elderly? The disabled?

Or would putting them in "re-education" camps be enough?

Have you asked yourself?

What was was said by someone other than you was this:


You've got to kill this cancer that is the TSA from the bottom up, one clerk at a time.
What your post said, by editing a quote in a way, so as to represent your own words and only your own words (despite the misattribution in your post):


You've got to kill...the TSA...one clerk at a time.

DaveBlaine Sep 16, 2015 7:05 am


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 25433314)
Have you asked yourself?

What was was said by someone other than you was this:


What your post said, by editing a quote in a way, so as to represent your own words and only your own words (despite the misattribution in your post):

Another quote for you. My original post in this thread:

"I think this is a great post to show that they are people too. They're just like you and me. They have feelings and families and they are just there to make air travel safer."

But of course you know that. You jumped right on it to bash the TSA.

jkhuggins Sep 16, 2015 7:26 am

The problem with praising "light-hearted TSA interactions" is that there's an unequal power distribution at a checkpoint --- all in the passengers disfavor.

A TSA screener makes a joke about "I can't let this through", and (s)he is "just" making a joke. A passenger makes a joke about "There's a bomb in that bag", and the passenger is probably going to have a very bad day at the hands of the TSA (and possibly local law enforcement).

The few TSOs who frequent this forum --- or jump into the waters from time to time --- often claim that it's easy to get through a checkpoint if you just follow the TSO's directions. Fine --- but then they shouldn't confuse matters by joking about those directions, or deadpanning jokes that give the impression that the passenger is about to lose their favorite T-shirt or laptop computer or whatever.

It is grossly unfair to tease a passenger when they can't respond in kind, out of fear of serious retaliation.

Grumpy? Sure. But that's the environment that TSA has chosen to create at the checkpoint. Keep your head down, say as little as possible, move along like good little sheep. That's what I do. I don't like it, but it's better than the alternative.

bricksoft Sep 16, 2015 8:36 am

Its good to see som TSA agents trying to lighten the mood at security But if we slightly change this

Originally Posted by bluesmoon (Post 25428584)
Incident 2: Was flying out of Logan (BOS) wearing my favourite Big Bang Theory T-Shirt. Went through the TSA-Pre line for security with my regular carry-on. It's a low traffic period, and the agent at the X-Ray looks at me straight faced and says, you can't take this bag through.

I look at her stunned and say that I've never had a problem before, but she insists, "I can't allow it!", then her expression completely changes and she goes "Bazinga!"

to

Was flying out of Logan (BOS) wearing my favourite Big Bang Theory T-Shirt. Went through the TSA-Pre line for security with my regular carry-on. It's a low traffic period, and I looked at the agent at the X-Ray straight faced and said, this bag has a my bomb in it.

She looked back stunned and said that I've never X-rayed a bomb before, but I insist, "its my bomb!", then my expression completely changes and I shout "Bazinga!"


No matter how loud you shout "Bazinga" the TSA will not see it as a joke. Neither should they joke about not allowing bags through

spd476 Sep 16, 2015 9:04 am

I find most of my interactions with the TSA to be neutral. I just want to get through and get to my gate. All it takes is one screener at a checkpoint to make things go negative in a hurry. It's usually the one that is barking orders loudly for no real reason, other than to be loud.

FliesWay2Much Sep 16, 2015 9:05 am


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25433261)
Quote:





Originally Posted by FliesWay2Much


Sorry - Anyone wearing a TSA fake cop uniform is guilty by association of rubbing our precious Constitution in our noses. They ... deserve our contempt. You've got to kill...the TSA...one clerk at a time.




Wow!

Who else should we advocate killing? Police? The elderly? The disabled?

Or would putting them in "re-education" camps be enough?

Nope. One way to kill, erode, destroy, terminate (pick your word or make up another one) is from the top down. Another way is to do it from the bottom up. I was going to say that you really have a "hair trigger" but I won't.

kmersh Sep 16, 2015 10:08 am

I have encountered the gambit of TSA front line employees and I truly believe that most are just average everyday people doing a job, there are some lone standouts who try hard to put on a smile and make travel just a little easier, but it is the group who go on a power trip that creates the bad taste in people's mouths.

There is a great TSA employee at DFW who always makes a point of saying Good Morning/Good Afternoon/Good Evening and makes a point to always wish everyone a pleasant flight. It is not a big thing and he still has to follow TSA rules, but by being polite it does make the experience just a little more tolerable and doesn't ramp up the tension that a Power Tripping TSA Employee can.

Boggie Dog Sep 16, 2015 11:32 am

Joking about not letting some item or person through security is no joke, nor is it the behavior of a professional.

GUWonder Sep 16, 2015 1:48 pm


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25433351)
Another quote for you. My original post in this thread:

"I think this is a great post to show that they are people too. They're just like you and me. They have feelings and families and they are just there to make air travel safer."

But of course you know that. You jumped right on it to bash the TSA.

Bash the TSA? Here's the post where I jumped right on it ("it" being your whole post and not just your snippet from within your post):


Originally Posted by GUWonder
TSA employees are just there to make air travel safer? That's funny, in more than one way. I would have thought that many are there because they fancy being on the federal dole/payroll. If not, some seem to like the pseudo-cop uniforms and pseudo-cop tin badges and play "respect my authorita!". Ain't that funny.

People are people, but that doesn't put them off limits for being subject to due criticism or praise -- not that there is much to praise about the TSA other that it is to be praised for becoming as large and expensive as it has become without any evidence of having made air travel safer in any statistically significant way.

You can take that however you wish; but if you think that is bashing the TSA, then it seems to me like people imagine bashing where there isn't. Just saying.

GUWonder Sep 16, 2015 1:54 pm


Originally Posted by jkhuggins (Post 25433436)
The problem with praising "light-hearted TSA interactions" is that there's an unequal power distribution at a checkpoint --- all in the passengers disfavor.

A TSA screener makes a joke about "I can't let this through", and (s)he is "just" making a joke. A passenger makes a joke about "There's a bomb in that bag", and the passenger is probably going to have a very bad day at the hands of the TSA (and possibly local law enforcement).

The few TSOs who frequent this forum --- or jump into the waters from time to time --- often claim that it's easy to get through a checkpoint if you just follow the TSO's directions. Fine --- but then they shouldn't confuse matters by joking about those directions, or deadpanning jokes that give the impression that the passenger is about to lose their favorite T-shirt or laptop computer or whatever.

It is grossly unfair to tease a passenger when they can't respond in kind, out of fear of serious retaliation.

Grumpy? Sure. But that's the environment that TSA has chosen to create at the checkpoint. Keep your head down, say as little as possible, move along like good little sheep. That's what I do. I don't like it, but it's better than the alternative.

In the more abusive prisons/prison camps, aren't jokes often more or less a one-way street, where the more powerful are more free to tell jokes while the less powerful are more subject to the whims of the powerful about whether a joke in the other direction is accepted with or without threat/punishment? I'd bet on it.

DaveBlaine Sep 16, 2015 2:16 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 25435499)
Bash the TSA? Here's the post where I jumped right on it ("it" being your whole post and not just your snippet from within your post):



You can take that however you wish; but if you think that is bashing the TSA, then it seems to me like people imagine bashing where there isn't. Just saying.

Would saying "pseudo-cop uniforms and pseudo-cop tin badges" show support or contempt for the TSA?

Just saying.

GUWonder Sep 16, 2015 2:43 pm


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25435649)
Would saying "pseudo-cop uniforms and pseudo-cop tin badges" show support or contempt for the TSA?

Just saying.

It would characterize the uniform and badges as they are: pseudo-cop uniforms and pseudo-cop tin badges.

Kate2015 Sep 16, 2015 5:18 pm


Originally Posted by DaveBlaine (Post 25429102)
and they are just there to make air travel safer.

LOL, really? If that was the case, they wouldn't have waited so long to implement 100% cargo screening, and wouldn't still be focusing on the wrong threats.

COSPILOT Sep 17, 2015 9:40 am

Flying out of CWA (Central Wisconsin Airport) a few years ago with a couple of clients. One of the clients was proudly wearing a Denver Broncos jacket, and as we approached TSA the employee started putting on very long latex gloves and suggested a full cavity search for the Broncos fan. It was obviously just a joke and we all got a good laugh out of it.

Note to self, don't wear anything but Packers clothing when in Wisconsin.:)

Randyk47 Sep 17, 2015 9:57 am

We fly enough out of SAT, which is a relatively small airport, that we recognize a number of the TSA folks and vice versa. They often ask "On the road again? Where to this time?" in a lighthearted rather than official way. They also know we are, or were since I'm now retired, Federal employees and say things to each other and us about us being "one of them". Not that I intend to have any of them over for a pool party but it makes the security hassle a little less onerous if we all can at least smile a bit and be civil.

Pup7 Sep 17, 2015 10:12 am

I went through CAE on the early DL flight about a month ago. TSA couldn't have been friendlier or nicer....jovial mood, asked me about being in the Air Force (used my ID as ID, LOL), how were things with all the cutbacks...

I flew through ORD about six months ago coming back from the UK and TSA there was equally friendly. There was one moat dragon but I ignored him (as did just about everyone else). I asked to speak to the supervisor and complimented her on the behavior and efficiency of the other 99% of her folks, but did point out that the yelling of the rules only annoys people, can come across as demeaning - and might actually scare those unfamiliar with the process. A little while later while on the secure side, I walked back by TSA en route to Starbucks (I know, I know) and the moat dragon was nowhere to be found. Good for her.

Some of these folks are doing their job without being on power trips. Some folks just want to earn a living with somewhat secure employment and decent health insurance. I can't fault anyone for that.

Pup7 Sep 17, 2015 10:14 am


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 25434792)
Joking about not letting some item or person through security is no joke, nor is it the behavior of a professional.

I agree - and also add if pax did it there'd be hell to pay.


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