Access to legal counsel at port of entry
Jun 5, 2015, 6:09 pm
#16
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,872
They wasted 90 min of your time after you refuse to answer what they ask with secondary inspection as well. I have been asked the same thing you were asked when entering but once also during an out bound flight as well as stated above.
As a US citizen, I had much better experience entering other countries than entering my own country! It is shame! They treat you as if you are entering an enemy territory. There is no such thing as respect, courtesy or profressionalism with these CBP officers.
As a US citizen, I had much better experience entering other countries than entering my own country! It is shame! They treat you as if you are entering an enemy territory. There is no such thing as respect, courtesy or profressionalism with these CBP officers.
Last edited by essxjay; Jul 4, 2015 at 11:13 am Reason: wholesale quote unnecessary
Jun 5, 2015, 9:52 pm
#17
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 288
I'm not aware of any authority to restrict cash going out of the country, or any other CBP screening when leaving the US, though I'm not certain on it. FinCEN 105 at least applies only to money coming into the US >$10k.
CBP can ask you whatever they want, if you were entering the US. AFAIK, you don't have to answer any questions, except for basic customs declaration on entry.
If you're not a US national / citizen, you can get turned away at the border for any reason. If you are one, you can't, though your stuff is subject to search & seizure.
It's possible that the scrutiny was because you were on a watchlist when you got to CBP, rather than the other way around.
I cannot. I am not a lawyer, I am not your lawyer, and I cannot give you any legal advice or opinion. I can only give information (to the best of my totally not official knowledge), not something about your particular situation.
CBP can ask you whatever they want, if you were entering the US. AFAIK, you don't have to answer any questions, except for basic customs declaration on entry.
If you're not a US national / citizen, you can get turned away at the border for any reason. If you are one, you can't, though your stuff is subject to search & seizure.
It's possible that the scrutiny was because you were on a watchlist when you got to CBP, rather than the other way around.
I cannot. I am not a lawyer, I am not your lawyer, and I cannot give you any legal advice or opinion. I can only give information (to the best of my totally not official knowledge), not something about your particular situation.
Sorry, that first bit of advice is incorrect -- FinCen105 for cash in excess of 10k needs to be filed on its way in OR out of the country, and looking for undeclared cash appears to be the main objective of random outbound customs inspections. Same with EU -- in fact, the website appears to state that money transiting needs to be declared both in and out; accordingly last time I went through FRA with a lot of cash I submitted two declaration forms, but they only processed one (outbound).
Jun 5, 2015, 10:07 pm
#18
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 288
Can you tell me where they acknowledge this and where they have a policy forbidding agents from informing passengers? I believe you, but those links contain and awful lot of sub links and it would be great if you could direct us to the right ones. Thanks.
I once sent questions through the CBP website about the right to remain silent at ports of entry, hereare the questions and the response I got:
After submitting a truthful customs declaration (blue) form, may U.S. citizens choose not to answer further questions from CBP officers at ports of entry?
ANSWER: Travelers, no matter their nationality, must answer all questions truthfully and fully at Primary Inspection. Failure to answer questions asked by the CBP Officer can result in the traveler being sent to Secondary Inspection. The reason is that the traveler appears to have something to hide and warrants further scrutiny.
What treatment should a U.S. citizen expect to receive if he or she declines to answer questions from a CBP officer?
ANSWER: A traveler who refuses to answer the questions of a CBP Officer at Primary Inspection can expect to be sent to Secondary Inspection for further scrutiny.
Can U.S. citizens be arrested, deported or denied entry into the United States by CBP simply for declining to answer questions from CBP officers?
ANSWER: A USC cannot be denied entry to the United States or deported for refusing to answer questions. However, the refusal can result in being sent to Secondary Inspection for further scrutiny. A person may be held and their person and luggage searched and the person questioned until it is determined that they are not involved in illegal activity. This type of hostile action on the part of the traveler will likely result in being sent to Secondary every subsequent time they return to the U.S.
An additional problem with refusing to answer the basic Primary Inspection questions is that this type of person wastes precious time, money, and adversely affects security by taking the CBP Officers away from their duties to deal with a USC who may have nothing to hide, but chooses to be obstinate. Again, questioning travelers is how we detect people who are involved in illegal activity and the Supreme Court has upheld that the doctrine of CBP's search authority is unique and does not violate the Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.
Travelers are highly advised to comply by answering the CBP Officer's questions. If a traveler is uncomfortable with a question, he/she can always ask to speak with the Chief Officer on duty or a CBP Passenger Service Manager (PSM) on-site. A supervisor is always available to address the concerns of travelers during their CBP processing.
I once sent questions through the CBP website about the right to remain silent at ports of entry, hereare the questions and the response I got:
After submitting a truthful customs declaration (blue) form, may U.S. citizens choose not to answer further questions from CBP officers at ports of entry?
ANSWER: Travelers, no matter their nationality, must answer all questions truthfully and fully at Primary Inspection. Failure to answer questions asked by the CBP Officer can result in the traveler being sent to Secondary Inspection. The reason is that the traveler appears to have something to hide and warrants further scrutiny.
What treatment should a U.S. citizen expect to receive if he or she declines to answer questions from a CBP officer?
ANSWER: A traveler who refuses to answer the questions of a CBP Officer at Primary Inspection can expect to be sent to Secondary Inspection for further scrutiny.
Can U.S. citizens be arrested, deported or denied entry into the United States by CBP simply for declining to answer questions from CBP officers?
ANSWER: A USC cannot be denied entry to the United States or deported for refusing to answer questions. However, the refusal can result in being sent to Secondary Inspection for further scrutiny. A person may be held and their person and luggage searched and the person questioned until it is determined that they are not involved in illegal activity. This type of hostile action on the part of the traveler will likely result in being sent to Secondary every subsequent time they return to the U.S.
An additional problem with refusing to answer the basic Primary Inspection questions is that this type of person wastes precious time, money, and adversely affects security by taking the CBP Officers away from their duties to deal with a USC who may have nothing to hide, but chooses to be obstinate. Again, questioning travelers is how we detect people who are involved in illegal activity and the Supreme Court has upheld that the doctrine of CBP's search authority is unique and does not violate the Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable searches and seizures.
Travelers are highly advised to comply by answering the CBP Officer's questions. If a traveler is uncomfortable with a question, he/she can always ask to speak with the Chief Officer on duty or a CBP Passenger Service Manager (PSM) on-site. A supervisor is always available to address the concerns of travelers during their CBP processing.
In my case, they were a bit more respectful than that. They kept asking questions, I maintained my silence , mostly -- one tried to argue with me that declining to answer should depend on what's being asked; I replied that I would suspect that my attorney would advise me not to answer if an agent asked what time it is. Then they tried to say that this was required as part of the "inspection" process -- I said I was fine with "inspection," but they were trying to turn this into an interrogation, something entirely different. Finally I said, "you have my passport, and you have my complete customs declaration form, signed under penalty of perjury. If you think my travel document is forged or tampered with, or if you think my customs declaration is false or incomplete, then go get the handcuffs and let's proceed with the arrest. Otherwise, you're wasting time here." I was soon on my way, but it appears from the experiences of others that wasting time -- traveller's time and the time of taxpayer-funded resources -- is what a lot of them like to do.
Jun 6, 2015, 1:21 am
#19
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 962
Sorry, that first bit of advice is incorrect -- FinCen105 for cash in excess of 10k needs to be filed on its way in OR out of the country, and looking for undeclared cash appears to be the main objective of random outbound customs inspections. Same with EU -- in fact, the website appears to state that money transiting needs to be declared both in and out; accordingly last time I went through FRA with a lot of cash I submitted two declaration forms, but they only processed one (outbound).
Jun 6, 2015, 4:59 am
#20
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 288
I have, on three occasions, refused to answer questions at ports of entry. The incidents went like this:
1. 2012. Returning from Cuba to Las Vegas via Mexico. I truthfully listed Cuba on the form. They asked why I went to Cuba. I refused to answer. A sh*tstorm ensues. Supervisor tells me "You have no rights the border, you relinquish them when you leave and you reapply for them when you return." As I had never refused before, and I hadn't full researched the issue, I said something like "Don't I have the right to remain silent?" which I now know is never how to address these guys. you need to be totally sure of yourself.
Anyway, the Officer tells me he's seizing my phone and computer. Since I needed my phone and computer, I told them "Fine, I went to Cuba to drink beer and talk to pretty Cuban girls in mangled Spanish." They kept me about 2-3 hours, let me go.
1. 2012. Returning from Cuba to Las Vegas via Mexico. I truthfully listed Cuba on the form. They asked why I went to Cuba. I refused to answer. A sh*tstorm ensues. Supervisor tells me "You have no rights the border, you relinquish them when you leave and you reapply for them when you return." As I had never refused before, and I hadn't full researched the issue, I said something like "Don't I have the right to remain silent?" which I now know is never how to address these guys. you need to be totally sure of yourself.
Anyway, the Officer tells me he's seizing my phone and computer. Since I needed my phone and computer, I told them "Fine, I went to Cuba to drink beer and talk to pretty Cuban girls in mangled Spanish." They kept me about 2-3 hours, let me go.
Seizing a phone and/or laptop presents an interesting question. Assuming they can unlock it, and presuming you made calls whilst in Cuba, I suppose in theory they could assert that the calls themselves create proof you spent money there, but there isn't really a way for them to know where you were when you made a call. Furthermore, they can't really prove you paid for any particular call -- calls were made using a roaming SIM, then your home carrier is going to bill you for it, but that doesn't prove you paid the bill. if for example you were using a Swisscom SIM, I rather doubt a Swiss court would enforce a subpoena for your phone bill in order to help the US enforce a policy that is widely criticised.
Jun 6, 2015, 5:34 am
#21
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 409
When traveling back to my home country of Canada I've said, "I don't answer personal questions like that" which kind of threw off the CBSA agents. One guy asked what kind of questions I would answer, and I said questions about my luggage.
I just watched the Wolf of Wall Street and thought the interrogation scene was hilarious. I'm considering next time just repeating over and over, "I don't recall.... I don't recall that either... are you going to finish that Danish?"
I just watched the Wolf of Wall Street and thought the interrogation scene was hilarious. I'm considering next time just repeating over and over, "I don't recall.... I don't recall that either... are you going to finish that Danish?"
Jun 6, 2015, 9:37 am
#22
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Radisson Gold, Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 3,623
I've considered that next time I will answer their questions, but I'll answer them like Bill Belichick:
"What were you doing in Uzbekistan"
"I thought it was a good trip, the pilots made a good effort, now I'm just looking forward to preparing for the next trip."
"What were you doing in Uzbekistan"
"I thought it was a good trip, the pilots made a good effort, now I'm just looking forward to preparing for the next trip."
Jun 6, 2015, 1:43 pm
#24
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,620
My cousin is unemployed but has a huge trust fund and just travels and parties whenever he wants and CPB always has trouble understanding that not everyone needs to work.
According to my cousin they generally after searching everything he has in an attempt to find something say something like, gee it must be nice.
I have never really had any issues at CPB other than one Officer after learning that I was a Physician asking me about a medical condition that he was diagnosed with and if I knew any Specialists in the area that I might recommend.
I said that as I had never examined the man I really could not make any recommendation which he didn't like and said something snarky about wanting to get the office visit charge, huh doc?, but he admitted me without any other incident.
According to my cousin they generally after searching everything he has in an attempt to find something say something like, gee it must be nice.
I have never really had any issues at CPB other than one Officer after learning that I was a Physician asking me about a medical condition that he was diagnosed with and if I knew any Specialists in the area that I might recommend.
I said that as I had never examined the man I really could not make any recommendation which he didn't like and said something snarky about wanting to get the office visit charge, huh doc?, but he admitted me without any other incident.
Jun 6, 2015, 1:44 pm
#25
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 574
I have often wondered about rights when confronted
by CBP. Putting it simply, they treat people like crap.
At the nightmare world of Miami customs, after a 3 hour
wait, the CBP brute was asking everyone if they had even been arrested
and then threatened to arrest me for asking me if I
was required to answer.
What a bizarre self-fulfilling prophecy that was becoming.
Never oh never will I go through Miami Customs again unless it is rebuilt
from the ground up.
by CBP. Putting it simply, they treat people like crap.
At the nightmare world of Miami customs, after a 3 hour
wait, the CBP brute was asking everyone if they had even been arrested
and then threatened to arrest me for asking me if I
was required to answer.
What a bizarre self-fulfilling prophecy that was becoming.
Never oh never will I go through Miami Customs again unless it is rebuilt
from the ground up.
Jun 6, 2015, 4:27 pm
#26
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Radisson Gold, Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 3,623
Your comment about the officer saying you can caryy out $5K is interesting. When I was colling my heels in secondary inspection lat week, an officer was interrogating a couple, and asked if they had more than 10K combined. Now they can ask anything they want of course, but I thought US citizens could bring in 10K each without declaring it.
If I had a wife, and we entered together and filled out one blue form, are we limited to 10K combined without declaring it, but if we arrive on separate flights, we get 10K each?
Jun 6, 2015, 7:18 pm
#27
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 38,417
The impression I've gotten is that they're making up their own rules and deciding that if the total is over $10k that it really belongs to one of them and was spread out to avoid going over the limit--akin to structuring that just tripped up that guy who was being blackmailed.
Last edited by essxjay; Jul 4, 2015 at 11:14 am Reason: wholesale quote removed for readability
Jun 6, 2015, 8:21 pm
#28
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Hilton Diamond, IHG Spire Ambassador, Radisson Gold, Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 3,623
According to this guidance from CBP, the $10,000 declaration threshold is per family, not per person.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...o-or-leave-the
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...o-or-leave-the
Jun 7, 2015, 12:05 am
#29
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,872
The impression I've gotten is that they're making up their own rules and deciding that if the total is over $10k that it really belongs to one of them and was spread out to avoid going over the limit--akin to structuring that just tripped up that guy who was being blackmailed.
Honestly, if this was someone else, he or she would challenge that officer on power trip and she would have learnt the lesson to not look someone down and treat as stupid and criminals. Why do they assume you are guilty and try to prove you guilty even after not finding you have done any thing wrong?
For example, if you violate traffic rules, cop pulls you over, writes you ticket and would explain what you got to do with ticket , court date our paying a fine or whatever it is and you are let go.
But this CBP officer still had so much hate in her even after not finding $5k she was saying travelers can carry and finding the exact $300 we declared?
Astounding!
Last edited by Blueskyheaven; Jun 7, 2015 at 12:23 am
Jun 7, 2015, 2:00 am
#30
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 962
Why do they assume you are guilty and try to prove you guilty even after not finding you have done any thing wrong?
But this CBP officer still had so much hate in her even after not finding $5k she was saying travelers can carry and finding the exact $300 we declared?
And SCOTUS precedent says that it doesn't matter whether there's selective enforcement (e.g. targeted only black people for stops) so long as the police action is has some nominally legal pretext (e.g. they were driving 1mph over the speed limit).