Actually, that's almost the point I'm trying to make.

Nobody's going to "hand guns" to anyone. Any TSO who wants to be a federal LEO is going to have to demonstrate that they're capable of handling all that's entailed --- and that's going to eliminate a lot of the folks who can't seem to understand even the basics of how TSA is supposed to work. I would guess that 90% of TSOs wouldn't qualify to be LEOs. (Just a guess, mind you; I have absolutely no basis for that guess.)

You have more faith than I. I believe the applications and "training" are likely to be handled just as stringently as the TSA has applied everything else to their own ranks - training, background checks, internal cross-checks, etc. - i.e., not at all.

I can't think of a single example of a current TSA employee who demonstrates any understanding of the "basics of how the TSA is supposed to work."

I think the system works more perfectly than we can imagine. We just think that its purpose is airport security. (See signature line below)

Exactly. If we do go ahead and them guns, I will start a campaign advocating that they be required to change their uniforms from blue to brown, because that would best symbolize where we are going as a supposed democracy. :rolleyes:

I'll get a Kevlar vest.

It wasn't my intent to characterize anyone's position...

What I was doing was clarifying that the vast vast vast majority on this board believe in real improvements in security. A few of us ardently believe that disbanding TSA is not only the best way to improve security, but is also necessary to restore lost personal freedoms. Again, I can't recall a single person (lunatics included) that wants 'no' security.

Using this definition, I believe our numbers are huge. Glad you are one of us. ^

I get your point, I think. Trying to arm LEOs will be an utter failure and major embarrassment. In turn, it will be obvious to the world that they are not LEOs, but are, in fact, only the clerks they really are. About right?

Unfortunately, I think you give the government and the people of this country too much credit. TSA will find an way (by hiring NEW PEOPLE and GROWING the empire) and most of the sheep in this country will go along with the 'anything for security' chanting. The empire will only grow larger, waste more, and abuse more. Security will not get better. (In fact, I believe that TSOs will be more at risk if they are armed. Think 'going postal'.)

I'm extremely creative, but cannot think of any scenario where this is a good thing. There is some possibility the TSA will become so thuggish that the country will turn on them. Even then, the rest of the government will not want to give up power/tax revenue. At best, TSA will get reformed.

My position, stated many times is simple. Our security should be reasonable. What we have now is not. We are spending far too much $$$, liberty, dignity, time, etc. to gain very little. I dare anyone to prove otherwise. In fact, what TSA is doing is making our security worse. If we're trying to save lives, let's stop buffering up massive amounts of people on the unsecured side of airports.

We wouldn't put up with this treatment at shopping malls. Why do we do it at airports?!?!?!

I agree this would be a huge flop. My estimate is 99.99% would not qualify as a LEO and essential none (except possibly former military or other LEOs) would be good at it. If these people could be LEOs, they would be. No sane person would take the molester job when they could work for the airport police. The exception are retired military/LEOs that may have age (or eyesight, or other) issues.

That said, my gut feeling is not to gamble that massive embarrassment will help reform or dissolve this cancer. I'm sure that some idiot TSO will shoot somebody that insults him at some point. Maybe this will spark nationwide outrage and motivate changes for the better, but maybe not. Power doesn't give up power. Usually the empire just rebuilds the death star with better special (theatrical) effects.

The TSA (self-identified) employees who have posted both on FT and on the blog over the years have assured us that they have "lots" of training. "Extensive" training. More training than we poor mortals (some of us with multiple university degrees) could possibly imagine. :rolleyes: Give them a bit more "training" for firearms and they'll just get more conceited about how much training they've had. :td:
This was my first thought, too, about jkhuggin's thought experiment. He has neglected the (very likely) possibility that the TSA will lower standards so that all (or most) TSA employees qualify for firearms. Anything for security, after all. Think of the children.

There was a story from the early days of the TSA by a journalist who applied for a TSA screening job, just to see how rigorous the "standards" were. From memory, they never bothered to follow up her references or do the real background check. They were so desperate to staff the checkpoints that they took a lot of people without any real scrutiny. I can't see that this would be any different.

This bears repeating x 1,000,000. ^^^

TSA is about money and power, not security.

I find it far more likely that the attitude of any armed TSA personnel who are put into the airports will be more like, "Now we have guns and tasers and can arrest these vile passengers. NOW we'll finally beat the respect into them that we've always deserved!" And of course, the remaining unarmed TSOs will adopt a very similar attitude: "Now we have armed TSOs backing us up. NOW we can do whatever we want, any time we want, and NOBODY can fail to respect us or we'll turn our armed brothers loose on them!"

It will be a disaster, not for the agency, but for the people. And I guarantee that there would be at least one beating, one tasing, and one shooting by these GestapTSOs within the first year of their deployment.

This is why I have great fear that it will happen. Pistole will see a grand opportunity to finally arm his army, and at the same time increase his share of the budgetary pie and maybe even escape some of the cuts that are inevitable in the next few years; he will naturally want to create a new, special, armed LEO force within TSA, rather than arming any existing TSOs, because that will mean a hiring binge, construction of multiple new training facilities, and the creation of a law enforcement force which the AG will naturally say has the power to search anyone, anywhere, any time, for any reason whatsoever or no reason whatsoever, because they're "transportation related" and covered by the administrative search doctrine.

The AFS crowd has one response to that, which does have a kernel of truth behind it - shopping malls cannot be turned into portable weapons of mass destruction like planes.

But the real danger of such a comparison is that, when it is pointed out that we don't allow this sort of thing at shopping malls, fearful and paranoid people will reply, "Well why not? Look at Kenya! That could happen here! Kenya was a practice run for the Mall of America! We NEED this kind of security at ALL of our shopping malls!" And TSA's mission creep will expand further...

As I said, I don't believe that many, if any, existing TSOs would be converted to the GestapTSO Corps. I believe that a whole new branch of the agency will be created, at obscene cost, with a huge hiring binge and construction of new training facilities - because the FAM, Secret Service, or FBI facilities will not be good enough - and the new corp will allow Pistole to expand the agency's personnel rolls and budget even further while finally giving him the armed, unrestricted force he seems to have always wanted TSA to become.

I would bet on TSA lowering standards to fit TSA needs. Problem solved, for TSA!

.....

Isn't that how the "Mexicutioners" already get their "training?"

You mean this story?

Question: who determines the standards for a federal employee to carry a firearm? Could TSA set those standards for itself, or are there external standards outside of TSA's control that would have to be satisifed?

I'm operating from the assumption that there are external standards --- in which case, attempting to arm TSOs would lead to the massive administrative failure that has been predicted here. But if TSA could set its own standards ... then I'd be in agreement with the rest of y'all that this would be a Very Bad Thing.

DHS runs the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, for 89 US government agencies, and some state, local, tribal, campus, and international agencies.

http://www.gao.gov/special.pubs/gao-..._training.html

DHS course length for Uniformed Police is 14 weeks. Air Marshal = 13 weeks. Basic firearms training = 6 weeks.

No way the agency is going to invest this amount of $$ for training folks recruited via pizza boxes with swiss cheese holes in their background checks.