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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   When did TSA update their prohibited items list to include marijuana? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1467453-when-did-tsa-update-their-prohibited-items-list-include-marijuana.html)

gobluetwo May 16, 2013 8:55 am


Originally Posted by InkUnderNails (Post 20760282)
If the local LEO defers, who detains the passenger while the feds arrive? Does the TSA just find some before unknown reason to use their discretion to prevent the passenger from going into the sterile area?

I think I just answered my own question. But, even then, they can not detain the passenger, but just not allow them to to proceed. The passenger could still go back outside, ditch the MJ and try again. Right?

I would assume they'd argue that the screening process is not yet complete, and their rule that nobody can abandon the screening process once it's complete is also known on FT, giving them a rationale for holding you until they're done.


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 20760654)
The marijuana itself is contraband. The pax is free to go and the marijuana is dealt with along with all other contraband (presumably turned over to law enforcement in batches and destroyed).

Don't tell me - they "burn" all contraband, right? :p

chollie May 16, 2013 8:57 am


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 20760654)
The marijuana itself is contraband. The pax is free to go and the marijuana is dealt with along with all other contraband (presumably turned over to law enforcement in batches and destroyed).

Has something changed in the last couple years? Or is this just another random inconsistency 'judgment call'?
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...eckpoints.html

An Alameda Sheriff's office had to be 'dealt' with because the Sheriff's office was confiscating medical marijuana from patients at the airport. The Sheriff didn't agree with state law and had to be brought into compliance. His officers were clearly being summoned by TSA when medical marijuana was found at the checkpoint.

http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-...nclick_check=1

Why would it be handled any differently than, say, multiple false IDs? Both are indicative of laws being broken (federal laws against MJ, state/federal laws against fake IDs).

Or sequential checks (TSA summoned LEs who detained a woman who had sequential checks in her pocket. She was detained until they could reach her husband and clarify that he knew she had the checks, drawn on a joint account, IIRC. The checks were in no way contraband, and technically, cleaning out a joint checking account isn't illegal as far as I know, but she was stopped by TSA and detained by LE anyway).

Ari May 16, 2013 10:08 am


Originally Posted by chollie (Post 20760497)
Not to take this to Omni, but it gives an indication of which way Holder/Obama are headed regarding the states that have legalized marijuana. :td:

TSA doesn't consult Holder or Obama when putting together their website.


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 20760654)
The marijuana itself is contraband. The pax is free to go and the marijuana is dealt with along with all other contraband (presumably turned over to law enforcement in batches and destroyed).

TSA tells us time and time again that they don't confiscate (or seize) items-- that they are always voluntarily surrendered. Are you insinuating that somehow "contraband" is different in this regard? If so, why?

Boggie Dog May 16, 2013 12:24 pm


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 20760654)
The marijuana itself is contraband. The pax is free to go and the marijuana is dealt with along with all other contraband (presumably turned over to law enforcement in batches and destroyed).

And if a TSA clerk holds the MJ for safe keeping aren't they now in possession of illegal drugs and should suffer legal consequences?

eyecue May 16, 2013 12:37 pm

Empty your Bong before you put it in your carry on :D

GUWonder May 16, 2013 12:58 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 20761945)
And if a TSA clerk holds the MJ for safe keeping aren't they now in possession of illegal drugs and should suffer legal consequences?

Prosecutor's discretion, but the TSA will say they were acting as an agent of the sovereign state, bringing up issues of operating under color of authority or under color of law.

In this country, we are not really all equal under the law when it comes to our relationship with government. Prosecutors pick and choose, for various reasons, good and bad, whom to pursue; that ends up furthering an Orwellian Animal Farmeseque reality (i.e. "all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than other animals") -- a reality demonstrated in how we are treated (including in Kafkaesque ways) by DHS (particularly TSA and CBP) employees at airports across the country.

GUWonder May 16, 2013 1:17 pm


Originally Posted by Ari (Post 20759014)
Marijuana* ('medical' or otherwise) is not a "narcotic" under federal law, nor is it considered a narcotic in the medical community.

They are pretty stingy when it comes to the former.


Probably; they are unaware of a lot. But the government doesn't have to give special permission for research using cocaine like they do with marijuana. Doctors can actually prescribe cocaine, not that they do, and certainly not for snorting or ingestion. But they could. (They use it in ERs as a topical anesthetic).

Colloquial use vs legal use vs medical use of the term narcotic, with all three kinds of use of the term having changed over time.

It used to be that cocaine was not considered a narcotic under federal law. Is it still that way?

For some medical research using cocaine, the government indeed does sometimes give special permission for using cocaine. Whether such special permission is required or not, I don't know. Perhaps I could ask some attorneys for a medical research center or two.

Whatever happened to the lingering question some had about the use of drugging of terrorism suspects or other related persons of interest in light of "torture" being defined as such that it wouldn't exclude drugging up detainees to mess with their mind as long as it wouldn't result in generally recognizable permanent tissue damage? Could the government still -- under the current Administration -- have them smoke a bud? ;)

I am just surprised that the TSA hasn't yet pushed to drug all passengers as a condition of being permitted to be a passenger on a flight. A knocked out passenger can't really do a whole lot on their own. Can never be too safe. :D

Often1 May 16, 2013 1:33 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 20761945)
And if a TSA clerk holds the MJ for safe keeping aren't they now in possession of illegal drugs and should suffer legal consequences?

Yes, the Officer would be in possession of the controlled substance, but that is not a crime. It is the "unlawful possession" which is a crime under federal law and so long as it is being held temporarily for turn over to a law enforcement officer it's pretty clearly not "unlawful". And, the same is true for the cop who turns in into evidence and so on.

If your analysis were the case, every cop in America who seized any illegal substance of any kind would be commiting a crime by seizing it.

stifle May 16, 2013 1:36 pm


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 20760654)
The marijuana itself is contraband. The pax is free to go and the marijuana is dealt with along with all other contraband (presumably turned over to law enforcement in batches and destroyed).

Thought experiment. The TSA doesn't confiscate anything, only accepts its surrender. What if the passenger refuses to surrender the marijuana and a local LEO declines to do anything (e.g. because possession is legal in that state)? The passenger does not have any WEI, so surely he can't be refused access to the sterile area?

GUWonder May 16, 2013 1:39 pm


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 20762330)
It is the "unlawful possession" which is a crime under federal law and so long as it is being held temporarily for turn over to a law enforcement officer it's pretty clearly not "unlawful".

Clear as mud, or that (being held temporarily for turnover to a a LEO) would be a frequent and highly effective defense attorney line and fixed assets (e.g. houses or motels) and vehicle property seizures wouldn't be what they are.

GUWonder May 16, 2013 1:42 pm


Originally Posted by stifle (Post 20762346)
Thought experiment. The TSA doesn't confiscate anything, only accepts its surrender. What if the passenger refuses to surrender the marijuana and a local LEO declines to do anything (e.g. because possession is legal in that state)? The passenger does not have any WEI, so surely he can't be refused access to the sterile area?

The TSA can refuse sterile (airside) area access to non-WEIs too. Even passengers without WEIs have been refused access to the sterile area -- for example those who are blacklisted in some way.

The TSA has repeatedly shown that it is more of a "don't ask permission" type than the average government entity.

Boggie Dog May 16, 2013 1:54 pm


Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 20762330)
Yes, the Officer would be in possession of the controlled substance, but that is not a crime. It is the "unlawful possession" which is a crime under federal law and so long as it is being held temporarily for turn over to a law enforcement officer it's pretty clearly not "unlawful". And, the same is true for the cop who turns in into evidence and so on.

If your analysis were the case, every cop in America who seized any illegal substance of any kind would be commiting a crime by seizing it.

TSA clerks are not law enforcement and have no reason to be holding illegal drugs. Who's to say they don't intend to keep said contraband?

emma dog May 16, 2013 2:40 pm


Originally Posted by Ari (Post 20759014)
Marijuana* ('medical' or otherwise) is not a "narcotic" under federal law, nor is it considered a narcotic in the medical community.

True... but this term is just a legal technicality. It is still a Schedule I Controlled Substance, which means that you can be prosecuted for possession under Federal Law.

And there are plenty of Narcotics that are legal to possess, ranging from Percocet and Tylenol #3 to Cocaine. As an Anesthesiologist, I administer/prescribe Cocaine on a semi-regular basis... it just happens to be a green colored mint-flavored solution that isn't going to be cut with a blade and snorted with a $100 bill.

emma dog May 16, 2013 2:47 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 20762253)
It used to be that cocaine was not considered a narcotic under federal law. Is it still that way?

For some medical research using cocaine, the government indeed does sometimes give special permission for using cocaine. Whether such special permission is required or not, I don't know. Perhaps I could ask some attorneys for a medical research center or two.

Cocaine is a narcotic per 42USC201:

(j) The term ''habit-forming narcotic drug'' or ''narcotic'' means opium and coca leaves and the several alkaloids derived therefrom, the best known of these alkaloids being morphia, heroin, and codeine, obtained from opium, and cocaine derived from the coca plant; all compounds, salts, preparations, or other derivatives obtained either from the raw material or from the various alkaloids; Indian hemp and its various derivatives, compounds, and preparations, and peyote in its various forms; isonipecaine and its derivatives, compounds, salts, and preparations; opiates (as defined in section 4731(g) (FOOTNOTE 1) of title 26);
And Cocaine is actually a Schedule II drug as it has legitimate medical purposes. It's a green liquid and is used by ENTs, Anesthesiologists and Oral Surgeons. I use it in my practice when I need to put a breathing tube in someone through their nose. The cocaine decreases the chances of bleeding as it constricts the blood vessels in the nose and the cocaine also acts as a local anesthetic so it doesn't hurt as much if I'm inserting it in an awake patient. ENTs will use it to reduce swelling and bleeding for sinus surgery as well as nose jobs.

Here's a picture of the bottle:
http://www.medhelp.org/drug_images/BOI81630.JPG

Often1 May 16, 2013 2:48 pm


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 20762456)
TSA clerks are not law enforcement and have no reason to be holding illegal drugs. Who's to say they don't intend to keep said contraband?

You may certainly think so. But, you would be wrong.

TSA Officers are not law enforcement. But, that has zippo to do with the issue which is "unlawful possession".

A federal employee who comes upon contraband, including marijuana, during the course of his employment, has an obligation to turn it over to law enforcement and his temporary possession for that purpose is far from "unlawful".

And, this is an issue which has nothing to do with your personal views of TSA Officers. It applies to GS-1 file clerks at the VA (if there are any) just as well.


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