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-   -   TSA's New Program (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1420438-tsas-new-program.html)

Andy Big Bear Jan 8, 2013 8:45 am


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 20001243)
Any confidence that the TSA's "managed inclusion" will exculde racist profiling results? Not here...

The words TSA and "new program" alone is enough to make my skin crawl. Personally, as someone who seems to be regularly targeted at one particular airport by a BDO who doesn't understand that the IRA doesn't operate out of Italy and that I'm not a twenty-something Irish blogger who's the grandson of a well known Sinn Féin attorney, I cringe every time the TSA gets to extend its behavioral evaluation program. Unlike the Israelis, we do it wrong.

GUWonder Jan 8, 2013 9:08 am


Originally Posted by Andy Big Bear (Post 20001847)
The words TSA and "new program" alone is enough to make my skin crawl. Personally, as someone who seems to be regularly targeted at one particular airport by a BDO who doesn't understand that the IRA doesn't operate out of Italy and that I'm not a twenty-something Irish blogger who's the grandson of a well known Sinn Féin attorney, I cringe every time the TSA gets to extend its behavioral evaluation program. Unlike the Israelis, we do it wrong.

The TSA was trained by Israelis to do it as the Israelis do it at TLV. What happens is the TSA does it as the TSA does things: inconsistently and in an inappropriate environment.

Ari Jan 8, 2013 9:16 am


Originally Posted by Joe Sharkey
TheGiven the random nature of managed inclusion, there are no guarantees that anyone waiting in a regular checkpoint line will be invited to use one of the exclusive PreCheck lanes. “From time to time you might be pulled out of the line” and invited to use PreCheck, Mr. Castelveter said. Those passengers are able to keep their shoes on and their laptops in their cases, though they still have to go through metal detectors or body-imaging machines at the checkpoints. Their carry-ons are also still put through magnetometers.

(emphasis added)

oops

Andy Big Bear Jan 8, 2013 9:16 am


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 20001996)
The TSA was trained by Israelis to do it as the Israelis do it at TLV. What happens is the TSA does it as the TSA does things: inconsistently and in an inappropriate environment.

Better put and well said, Sir.

cbn42 Jan 8, 2013 3:32 pm

This program sounds like an excuse to cover up the failures of PreCheck. Not enough airlines are participating, not enough people are signing up for Global Entry, name mismatch problems are keeping people from using it, and so on. Setting aside a lane for PreCheck at each terminal results in congestion in the other lanes. This program seems to be designed to remedy that by shifting more people into the PreCheck lanes.

I would be interested to know on what basis people will be pulled into the PreCheck lanes. My guess is that it will be based on crowd level. If the checkpoint is congested, a few people will be "invited" to go through PreCheck, just like they currently open WTMD lanes to reduce congestion. Of course, there is going to be a racial bias to it, regardless of what anyone claims.

chollie Jan 8, 2013 5:18 pm

I wonder what happens if you are 'selected' and you decline and say something like "No thanks, I feel safer going through the regular process" with a big smile.

Sort of like some Americans at European airports who insist on taking off their shoes (and blathering loudly about it) because they believe in safety.

Global_Hi_Flyer Jan 8, 2013 5:57 pm


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 20004974)
just like they currently open WTMD lanes to reduce congestion.

That's only true at a handful of airports. Most use the strip-search regardless of line length.

I will note that JFK T8 is one where the practice has been to use WTMD with long backups.

system error Jan 9, 2013 7:08 pm

I don't see this being a good thing for me. I usually make it a point not to talk or even look at TSA during the screening. I do watch my goods going through the xray pretty careful though. Also, I'm the guy who will forcefully push the trays backwards through the xray when they are all pilled up on the other side and the agent keeps running the belt along. I've gotten some nasty looks from them on that but it just seems very rude of them to keep the belt running, making trays bunch up and spill over when clearly they just need to wait a few seconds for people to grab their stuff and move on. I'm all for hurrying things along but that irks me to no end. :mad:

aerodrome Jan 10, 2013 3:49 pm


Originally Posted by goalie (Post 19911441)
More like mismanaged delusion if you ask me ;)

Ahaha nice ;)

BStrauss3 Jan 12, 2013 8:34 am


Originally Posted by Pesky Monkey (Post 19930823)
I find the whole dogs thing a bit dubious. Dogs are not well suited for sitting around at a checkpoint. They need bathroom breaks and play time, as any handler would know. This sounds more like a charade.

So do TSA 'officers' and well, you know MY opinion as to which is smarter...

GUWonder Jan 12, 2013 9:10 am


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 20004974)
This program sounds like an excuse to cover up the failures of PreCheck. Not enough airlines are participating, not enough people are signing up for Global Entry, name mismatch problems are keeping people from using it, and so on. Setting aside a lane for PreCheck at each terminal results in congestion in the other lanes. This program seems to be designed to remedy that by shifting more people into the PreCheck lanes.

I would be interested to know on what basis people will be pulled into the PreCheck lanes. My guess is that it will be based on crowd level. If the checkpoint is congested, a few people will be "invited" to go through PreCheck, just like they currently open WTMD lanes to reduce congestion. Of course, there is going to be a racial bias to it, regardless of what anyone claims.

The TSA wants to make a lot more use of commercial database (mis)information and use that to determine which currently non-PreCheck-enrolled individuals should be given the LLL treatment going forward even if not enrolling in PreCheck. This will be in some ways a return to the stupid CAPPS(II) system ways that the TSA wants.

This pursued change is a tell that the TSA isn't satisfied with just (In)SecureFlight and being limited to using just primarily government-created-and-administered blacklists. Rather, the TSA wants its own enlarged fiefdom and expanded powers.

The system the TSA wants will indeed have a racial bias to it. The commercial databases mess up individuals who are ethnic minorities far more frequently than it messes up individuals who are part of the ethnic majority. Then there are those in the TSA who are bigoted, and that will also further the racial bias under any new system relying upon "questioning" of passengers.

SeriouslyLost Jan 12, 2013 10:59 am


Originally Posted by Boggie Dog (Post 19911610)
Interrogation by TSA in order to travel in a free country is not acceptable.

True, but it can be thoroughly entertaining if you've got the time to mess with their minds. :D

SeriouslyLost Jan 12, 2013 11:26 am


Originally Posted by Flaflyer (Post 19935577)
If TSA really wanted to do a scientific study, they would run a controlled experiment.
Test Managed Inclusion their way at one airport. At another, test Mongrel Inspection, where the dogs ask the 20 questions and the human BDOs sniff each passenger.
I’ll bet both airports catch the same number of terrorists. ^

In order to be scientific it will need to be a double blind study. By which I mean a third airport will need to be used where the TSA agents and dogs are all blind. And then we check after ~6 months to see which one catches the most terrorists. LAX should fit the bill - all the TSA agents there are clearly blind already. Now we just need 50+ blind, explosives-sniffing trained dogs: how hard could that be?

I love science. :)

chollie Jan 12, 2013 12:39 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 20031979)
The TSA wants to make a lot more use of commercial database (mis)information and use that to determine which currently non-PreCheck-enrolled individuals should be given the LLL treatment going forward even if not enrolling in PreCheck. This will be in some ways a return to the stupid CAPPS(II) system ways that the TSA wants.

This pursued change is a tell that the TSA isn't satisfied with just (In)SecureFlight and being limited to using just primarily government-created-and-administered blacklists. Rather, the TSA wants its own enlarged fiefdom and expanded powers.

The system the TSA wants will indeed have a racial bias to it. The commercial databases mess up individuals who are ethnic minorities far more frequently than it messes up individuals who are part of the ethnic majority. Then there are those in the TSA who are bigoted, and that will also further the racial bias under any new system relying upon "questioning" of passengers.

Don't forget Facebook. We've already seen a couple of well-publicized incidents where someone in the media shot his mouth based on the wrong Facebook profile (someone with the same/similar name).

TSA (all of DHS) starts from the viewpoint that all pax are guilty, until conditionally proven 'OK' for one checkpoint passage only. That kind of thinking prevents them from admitting that perhaps, just maybe, they've got a mismatch between information and the individual in front of them.

aerodrome Jan 12, 2013 2:02 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 20031979)

The system the TSA wants will indeed have a racial bias to it. The commercial databases mess up individuals who are ethnic minorities far more frequently than it messes up individuals who are part of the ethnic majority. Then there are those in the TSA who are bigoted, and that will also further the racial bias under any new system relying upon "questioning" of passengers.

When you refer to those that are bigoted in the TSA, are you talking about racial bigotry? Who are you imagining as those that are bigoted? What if a TSA officer is black? In such a work environment is there some sort of progression somehow given the circumstances that lead them to adopt the same racial biases as white TSA agents? What about Arab TSA agents? Do they exist? So many questions. I'm sorry to get off track; these thoughts crossed my mind.


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