Rock-throwing prompts border shooting
Oct 9, 2012, 5:45 pm
#76
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I am not suggesting LEO's should do whatever they want. I never said anything even close to that. I don't think carpenter should do whatever they want but I don't tell him how to build a house. I don't think a pilot should do whatever he wants but I don't tell him how to fly a plane. I don't think an accountant should do whatever he wants but I don't tell him how to be an accountant. If someone in these professions makes a mistake we have someone who has just as much training or more in that profession to look at the situation and determine in a mistake was made and why. If a pilot makes a mistake do you want your neighbor next door who is an accountant to look into it. That is the point.
The words I wrote mean exactly what they say nothing less and nothing more. I am suggesting that regular citizens such as the OP, while they are entitled to an opinion, really don't know how to do the job of a law enforcement officer. Yet, they approach discussions such as this one like they do. Further, that a regular citizen, such as the OP, would not presume to imply that they know the other professions I mentioned or any other profession really better than someone who has been educated, trained and has much more experience than the regular citizen (read none for the regular citizen.)
The whole problem is then made worst by comments like the OP made " I am not making any judgments" then the whole rest of the post is exactly that. A judgment made with very little if any knowledge of the subject matter and without even knowing all the facts.
FB
The words I wrote mean exactly what they say nothing less and nothing more. I am suggesting that regular citizens such as the OP, while they are entitled to an opinion, really don't know how to do the job of a law enforcement officer. Yet, they approach discussions such as this one like they do. Further, that a regular citizen, such as the OP, would not presume to imply that they know the other professions I mentioned or any other profession really better than someone who has been educated, trained and has much more experience than the regular citizen (read none for the regular citizen.)
The whole problem is then made worst by comments like the OP made " I am not making any judgments" then the whole rest of the post is exactly that. A judgment made with very little if any knowledge of the subject matter and without even knowing all the facts.
FB
I'm qualified to tell a pilot not to fly if they appear intoxicated (or having a stroke) because they are staggering or slurring words. Everyone should behave in a way to not cause others to question their behavior, morals and ethics. Police, unlike accountants or pilots, can kill citizens and then get their peers to help skew the evidence to get them off. Should only the police decide if a fellow officer was justified in shooting someone handcuffed in the back (Oakland transit cops) or should a lay person beagle to weigh in. I'm sure if there was no video it would have ended differently.
But throwing large rocks across the border I would look at as an armed invasion by a foreign state and I think an Apache gun platform firing 1,000 rounds per minute at there's would be justified.
Feb 21, 2017, 6:05 am
#77
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The case has worked it's way all the way to SCOTUS.
Supreme Court To Decide If Mexican Nationals May Sue For Border Shooting
Supreme Court To Decide If Mexican Nationals May Sue For Border Shooting
The U.S. Department of Justice decided not to prosecute Mesa. Among other things, the department concluded that it did not have jurisdiction because the boy was not on U.S. soil when he was killed. Mexico charged the agent with murder, but when the U.S. refused to extradite him, no prosecution could go forward. U.S. Customs and Border Patrol did not discipline agent Mesa—a fact that critics, including high-ranking former agency officials, say reflects a pattern inside the agency.
...
As the case comes to the Supreme Court, there has been no trial yet and no court finding of facts. Mesa continues to maintain that he shot the boy in self-defense after being surrounded by rock-throwing kids. ...The only question before the Supreme Court centers on whether the Hernández family has the right to sue. A divided panel of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals concluded that no reasonable officer would have done what Agent Mesa did, and that therefore the family could sue.
However, the full court of appeals reversed that judgment, ruling that because the Hernández boy was standing on the Mexico side of the border and was a Mexican citizen with no ties to the United States, his family could not sue for a violation of the U.S. Constitution. Moreover, the appeals court said that even if the facts as alleged by the Hernández family are true, Mesa is entitled to qualified immunity, meaning he cannot be sued because there is no clearly established body of law barring his conduct.
...
As the case comes to the Supreme Court, there has been no trial yet and no court finding of facts. Mesa continues to maintain that he shot the boy in self-defense after being surrounded by rock-throwing kids. ...The only question before the Supreme Court centers on whether the Hernández family has the right to sue. A divided panel of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals concluded that no reasonable officer would have done what Agent Mesa did, and that therefore the family could sue.
However, the full court of appeals reversed that judgment, ruling that because the Hernández boy was standing on the Mexico side of the border and was a Mexican citizen with no ties to the United States, his family could not sue for a violation of the U.S. Constitution. Moreover, the appeals court said that even if the facts as alleged by the Hernández family are true, Mesa is entitled to qualified immunity, meaning he cannot be sued because there is no clearly established body of law barring his conduct.
Feb 21, 2017, 6:37 am
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The case has worked it's way all the way to SCOTUS.
Supreme Court To Decide If Mexican Nationals May Sue For Border Shooting
Supreme Court To Decide If Mexican Nationals May Sue For Border Shooting
Whatever the SCOTUS decides to do on this matter, I hope it's a very tightly tailored ruling -- especially if the ruling sides with Mesa. This kind of case can have huge implications on the rights of even peaceful persons at/near -- or attempting to travel to or otherwise approach -- a US border and/or US port of entry from abroad.
Last edited by GUWonder; Feb 21, 2017 at 7:02 am
Nov 22, 2018, 8:50 am
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Not Guilty: Jury acquits border patrol agent who shot Mexican teen on one charge, voluntary manslaughter charged not resolved
A Border Patrol agent who shot and killed a Mexican teenager from across the border in Arizona was acquitted Wednesday of involuntary manslaughter in a case that has drawn national attention amid heightened debate over immigration.
In 2012, the border guard, Lonnie Swartz, opened fire into the Mexican city of Nogales, killing 16-year-old José Antonio Elena Rodríguez. A jury found Mr. Swartz not guilty of second-degree murder in April but deadlocked on manslaughter charges, prompting another trial.
In court on Wednesday, the jury found Mr. Swartz not guilty of involuntary manslaughter, but it did not make a decision on voluntary manslaughter, according to court documents.
Six years ago, Mr. Swartz emptied his .40-caliber pistol with a spray of bullets into Mexico, according to court documents. José Antonio was struck 10 times and collapsed on the sidewalk across from the border fence.
Mr. Swartz’s defense has argued that he opened fire in response to people, including José Antonio, throwing rocks from the other side of the fence. Mr. Chapman told The Associated Press that José Antonio endangered the lives of the law enforcement officials near the fence.
In 2012, the border guard, Lonnie Swartz, opened fire into the Mexican city of Nogales, killing 16-year-old José Antonio Elena Rodríguez. A jury found Mr. Swartz not guilty of second-degree murder in April but deadlocked on manslaughter charges, prompting another trial.
In court on Wednesday, the jury found Mr. Swartz not guilty of involuntary manslaughter, but it did not make a decision on voluntary manslaughter, according to court documents.
Six years ago, Mr. Swartz emptied his .40-caliber pistol with a spray of bullets into Mexico, according to court documents. José Antonio was struck 10 times and collapsed on the sidewalk across from the border fence.
Mr. Swartz’s defense has argued that he opened fire in response to people, including José Antonio, throwing rocks from the other side of the fence. Mr. Chapman told The Associated Press that José Antonio endangered the lives of the law enforcement officials near the fence.
Nov 22, 2018, 10:18 am
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I wonder what the reaction will be if someone from the south side of the border responds to CBP fire and kills a CBP officer. Will that individual be able to successfully plead that he feared for his life and stood his ground? Will a Mexican court exonerate him? Will the US accept that as justice?
Nov 22, 2018, 3:31 pm
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I wonder what the reaction will be if someone from the south side of the border responds to CBP fire and kills a CBP officer. Will that individual be able to successfully plead that he feared for his life and stood his ground? Will a Mexican court exonerate him? Will the US accept that as justice?
Mexico has criminalized the bearing of guns in public in a way that it hasn't done to ownership/possession of guns in say homes IIRC. So I think Mexican prosecutors and the Mexican judicial system would probably find the cross-border shooter guilty of something or other. Mexican jurisdictions may have some kind of "duty to retreat" applicable, but I'm not sure about that.
Last edited by GUWonder; Nov 22, 2018 at 3:40 pm
Feb 25, 2020, 6:15 pm
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Whatever the SCOTUS decides to do on this matter, I hope it's a very tightly tailored ruling -- especially if the ruling sides with Mesa. This kind of case can have huge implications on the rights of even peaceful persons at/near -- or attempting to travel to or otherwise approach -- a US border and/or US port of entry from abroad.
https://www.npr.org/2020/02/25/80940...ls-cant-be-sue
Supreme Court Rules Border Patrol Agents Who Shoot Foreign Nationals Can't Be Sued
The majority-conservative opinion — 5-4 — affirmed previous lower court rulings that foreign nationals are not protected by U.S. federal laws, which can only be applied domestically.Justice Samuel Alito, who wrote the opinion, said the deadly incident is a matter of national security, which is under the purview of Congress or the president. Those branches alone, he said, possess the power "to authorize the award of damages for injuries inflicted outside our borders."
"A crossborder shooting affects the interests of two countries and, as happened here, may lead to disagreement. It is not for this Court to arbitrate between the United States and Mexico, which both have legitimate and important interests at stake and have sought to reconcile those interests through diplomacy," Alito said.
...
In the minority opinion, Ginsburg argued that regardless of Hernández's status as a noncitizen, the lawsuit should have been allowed because Mesa was on U.S. soil when he fired the shot.
"It scarcely makes sense for a remedy trained on deterring rogue officer conduct to turn on the happenstance subsequent to the conduct — a bullet landing in one half of a culvert, not the other," Ginsburg wrote.
She noted that if Hernández been standing on American soil, he would have constitutional rights and the officer would be liable.
"The only salient difference here: the fortuity that the bullet happened to strike Hernández on the Mexican side of the embankment. But Hernández's location at the precise moment the bullet landed should not matter one whit," she said.
Feb 26, 2020, 1:04 am
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Well, given what the SCOTUS majority has done here, expect more DHS employees to be shooting people across the border. Does the same excuse providing cover to DHS employees apply to other Americans firing across the borders when not in the employ of the government?
Feb 26, 2020, 12:13 pm
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So while CBP agents may now feel free to shoot at anyone on the other side of the border whom they feel or claim was a threat to them, your average rancher in Nogales or Uber driver in Detroit do not enjoy any such protection.
Feb 26, 2020, 12:20 pm
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Embassies abroad are not foreign soil, but they and their personnel have sovereign immunity of sorts from the jurisdiction of their host countries. Shooting from embassies, using the kind of reasoning bought into by the SCOTUS majority, would mean that shooting from the embassy grounds would have such shooters too immune in the US in the same way as the shooters shooting at Mexico under claims of being done under color of authority.
Last edited by GUWonder; Feb 26, 2020 at 12:31 pm
Feb 26, 2020, 1:50 pm
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That's what I meant.
So shooting back from Mexico could mean (Mexican) charges for unlawful possession and discharge of a firearm, but not for manslaughter (etc) as there is no victim in Mexico (?)
Mexico has criminalized the bearing of guns in public in a way that it hasn't done to ownership/possession of guns in say homes IIRC. So I think Mexican prosecutors and the Mexican judicial system would probably find the cross-border shooter guilty of something or other. Mexican jurisdictions may have some kind of "duty to retreat" applicable, but I'm not sure about that.
Last edited by TWA884; Feb 26, 2020 at 2:37 pm Reason: FT Rule 14. Merge consecutive posts by the same member
Feb 26, 2020, 2:10 pm
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That’s a question that would best be asked of someone with much more familiarity with Mexican legal matters, and that someone is definitely not I.
Feb 27, 2020, 12:04 pm
#89
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Shooting back and forth across borders is usually something that happens during wartime; domestic criminal statutes are generally not used to address such things.
Feb 27, 2020, 3:42 pm
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While the volume of bullets and stuff being shot across borders is more intense during wartime, lots of cross-border shootings take place across borders of countries that aren’t in a legally declared war with each other and yet there is such animosity at times that military or paramilitary forces fire across. And such kind of situation isn’t all that unusual and is more common than a full on declared war of the sort that makes the nightly news every night in the countries having cross-border firing.