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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Why does my dad do this? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1385213-why-does-my-dad-do.html)

cbn42 Sep 8, 2012 11:46 pm

Do you want the actual answer or the FlyerTalk answer?

The actual answer is that your dad has a different method of risk assessment than you do. He places more faith in the government and assumes that they would not put him through anything unsafe (most media reports, after all, claim that the scanners are safe). He may not be concerned about long term health risks, and he doesn't see himself as guardian of the constitution. Instead, he is more concerned with immediate efficiency and comfort than you are.

The FlyerTalker answer is that he is "ignorant"and/or an "idiot", as others have said.

Pesky Monkey Sep 9, 2012 9:18 pm


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 19280443)
Do you want the actual answer or the FlyerTalk answer?

The actual answer is that your dad has a different method of risk assessment than you do. He places more faith in the government and assumes that they would not put him through anything unsafe (most media reports, after all, claim that the scanners are safe). He may not be concerned about long term health risks, and he doesn't see himself as guardian of the constitution. Instead, he is more concerned with immediate efficiency and comfort than you are.

The FlyerTalker answer is that he is "ignorant"and/or an "idiot", as others have said.

If he doesn't know what the machine is, then he is ignorant. It doesn't mean he' an idiot. I don't think anybody here says he was.

Caradoc Sep 9, 2012 9:24 pm


Originally Posted by Pesky Monkey (Post 19285244)
If he doesn't know what the machine is, then he is ignorant. It doesn't mean he' an idiot. I don't think anybody here says he was.

I did, but I retracted it in favor of "deliberately ignorant."

cbn42 Sep 9, 2012 10:41 pm


Originally Posted by Pesky Monkey (Post 19285244)
If he doesn't know what the machine is, then he is ignorant. It doesn't mean he' an idiot. I don't think anybody here says he was.

So how much does he need to know about the machines in order to not be called "ignorant"? He knows that it's a machine that checks for hidden objects. Does he need to know how the software reads the image? Does he need to understand the science behind the radiation?

tkey75 Sep 10, 2012 5:44 am


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 19285567)
So how much does he need to know about the machines in order to not be called "ignorant"?

The machine performs an electronic strip search, has potentially dangerous health effects, is questionable in it's security effectiveness.

There. No longer completely ignorant.

Caradoc Sep 10, 2012 8:29 am


Originally Posted by tkey75 (Post 19286691)
The machine performs an electronic strip search, has potentially dangerous health effects, is questionable in it's security effectiveness.

You left out "unexamined/uncertified by the FDA, and operated by persons untrained/uncertified/uneducated in the operation of devices utilizing ionizing radiation."

marvanit Sep 10, 2012 9:17 am


Originally Posted by CDTraveler (Post 19274729)
The problem is you're wrong, because a long term increase in the number of cases of cancer will effect all residents and repeatedly irradiating large numbers of people will likely* result in increased cancer rates. Cancer is an expensive, labor intensive disease to treat (been there, paid those bills) and the U.S. health care system is already straining and costs are skyrocketing.

Trying not to veer too far into OMNI territory, I will just say that the cost of those machines in the long run will be a lot more than just civil liberties lost.


*based on the reports of a number of concerned, qualified scientists and doctors about untrained staff using machines not evaluated by independent agencies for safety and reliability

So is obesity, are you suggesting a ban on food too?

Hurry, ban cigarettes, alcohol and fast food too! Nobody should have any choice anymore in things that affect their health.

Caradoc Sep 10, 2012 9:23 am


Originally Posted by marvanit (Post 19287817)
Nobody should have any choice anymore in things that affect their health.

Ironic that your statement is exactly how the TSA justifies using their body scanners...

marvanit Sep 10, 2012 9:44 am


Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 19287860)
Ironic that your statement is exactly how the TSA justifies using their body scanners...

To be clear, I opt out of using them. It just becomes a slippery slope.

Caradoc Sep 10, 2012 9:45 am


Originally Posted by marvanit (Post 19287998)
To be clear, I opt out of using them. It just becomes a slippery slope.

Not at all.

If the government mandated that people smoke, the argument would be similar.

However, since the body scanners are mandated while smoking/eating fried food/other generally unhealthy things are choices made by the people, it doesn't swing.

marvanit Sep 10, 2012 1:32 pm


Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 19288012)
Not at all.

If the government mandated that people smoke, the argument would be similar.

However, since the body scanners are mandated while smoking/eating fried food/other generally unhealthy things are choices made by the people, it doesn't swing.

The government is mandating that we fly????

TMOliver Sep 10, 2012 1:49 pm

In my case, the decision has been pretty simple. Nothing I've read here or elsewhere, most of wildly speculative and approaching the realm of fantasy (and so often emotionally predicated by legitimate concerns over the presence, procedures and actions of the TSA, rather than sound analysis of any potentially harmful effects of the machines), serves to convince me that my exposure by infrequent trips through the scanners provides RADHAZ at far lower levels than countless other radiation exposures in my childhood and adult life.

Nor does the prospect of on screen "nekkidness" under the eyes of the cannon fodder who seem to make up much of the TSA staff cause me to opt for a "grope'.

It seems only yesterday, we were confronted by the prospect that even in the most modern a/c, high altitude flights represented a potential RADHAZ. Then there was the clamor over cell phones. In the innocent but halcyon days of my youth, Strontium 90 in our milk was sure to destroy us.

For those of sincere conviction otherwise, the "grope" may not be a welcome choice, but then flying is a convenience increasingly burdened by inconvenience. Once comfortable, and aside from the comforts of the front cabins, increasingly uncomfortable, there remain moments in which it is the optimal alternative.

jco613 Sep 10, 2012 1:52 pm

For what it's worth, I got to witness my mom opt out while my dad did his thing through the MMW. He had to get the post scan rub down and I texted him to which he replied that he may reconsider things now. Too late in my eyes, but I'll take it!

CDTraveler Sep 10, 2012 5:52 pm


Originally Posted by TMOliver (Post 19289441)
In my case, the decision has been pretty simple. Nothing I've read here or elsewhere, most of wildly speculative and approaching the realm of fantasy (and so often emotionally predicated by legitimate concerns over the presence, procedures and actions of the TSA, rather than sound analysis of any potentially harmful effects of the machines), serves to convince me that my exposure by infrequent trips through the scanners provides RADHAZ at far lower levels than countless other radiation exposures in my childhood and adult life.

:confused:

What is it you are trying to say?

CDTraveler Sep 10, 2012 6:05 pm


Originally Posted by marvanit (Post 19287817)
So is obesity, are you suggesting a ban on food too?

Hurry, ban cigarettes, alcohol and fast food too! Nobody should have any choice anymore in things that affect their health.

You forgot the [/sarc] at the end of your post.

Neither food nor alcohol in moderation have proven harmful. So suggesting a ban on food to cure obesity is just plain stupid and shows the worth of your comments, and bringing up tobacco is so far OT that it doesn't deserve a response.

Radiation has been proven to cause cancer, is that too difficult to understand? Why it causes cancer is not 100% understood, could be dosage, could be genetic susceptibility, could be holes in the ozone for all science can prove today. The TSA can not prove that their machines do not increase the risk of cancer to the general population, and in fact seem to expect us all to just take their word for it without any data to back up their claims.

You are free to enter their devices as often as you like, but I won't be joining you.


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