...But we never left the US?!
Aug 8, 2012, 8:16 am
#46
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Not true. I have entered the U.S. without a passport (from France, after mine was stolen -- and after 9/11/01). If you really believe this, then show us the cite. I have been told many, many times that a U.S. citizen can enter the U.S. -- his or her own country, after all! -- with or without a passport, or even stark naked, without any identification at all. End of story.
Bruce
Bruce
Is it best to have a passport? Of course. But it is not required, and you certainly won't be fined or charged with a crime if you cross back to the US without one.
Aug 8, 2012, 9:46 am
#47
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Not true. I have entered the U.S. without a passport (from France, after mine was stolen -- and after 9/11/01). If you really believe this, then show us the cite. I have been told many, many times that a U.S. citizen can enter the U.S. -- his or her own country, after all! -- with or without a passport, or even stark naked, without any identification at all. End of story.
You're eventually admitted--end of story. Countless posts on this forum are about the middle part of the story, usually referred to as "secondary".
Aug 8, 2012, 1:33 pm
#48
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Not true. I have entered the U.S. without a passport (from France, after mine was stolen -- and after 9/11/01). If you really believe this, then show us the cite. I have been told many, many times that a U.S. citizen can enter the U.S. -- his or her own country, after all! -- with or without a passport, or even stark naked, without any identification at all. End of story.
Bruce
Bruce
Mike
Aug 8, 2012, 2:51 pm
#49
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8USC1185b: Except as otherwise provided by the President and subject to such limitations and exceptions as the President may authorize and prescribe, it shall be unlawful for any citizen of the United States to depart from or enter, or attempt to depart from or enter, the United States unless he bears a valid United States passport.
You're eventually admitted--end of story. Countless posts on this forum are about the middle part of the story, usually referred to as "secondary".
You're eventually admitted--end of story. Countless posts on this forum are about the middle part of the story, usually referred to as "secondary".
Last edited by GUWonder; Aug 8, 2012 at 3:13 pm
Aug 9, 2012, 12:16 pm
#50
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If it's an infant there's really no question, but I've seen some HUGE 23 month old toddlers.Also seen parents and child have to take a later flight because there wasn't a seat available on a full flight for their child.
As I said before, it's just a helpful suggestion to be prepared.
Aug 9, 2012, 1:57 pm
#51
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And I've seen parents have to buy a last minute ticket for lap children that had no means of proving their age, on more than one airline. In some of the cases, the parents actually admitted their kids were over 2. If it's an infant there's really no question, but I've seen some HUGE 23 month old toddlers.
Also seen parents and child have to take a later flight because there wasn't a seat available on a full flight for their child.
As I said before, it's just a helpful suggestion to be prepared.
If it's an infant there's really no question, but I've seen some HUGE 23 month old toddlers.Also seen parents and child have to take a later flight because there wasn't a seat available on a full flight for their child.
As I said before, it's just a helpful suggestion to be prepared.
Even for international flights in some markets where no passport is generally required, lap child infants are not even to be required to have a passport let alone a birth certificate. Of course there are exceptionally annoying paranoid busybodies working for the airlines or government in many places but that is not a reason to play surrender monkey to a petty little Napoleon wannabe and meet whatever stupid request such a person may make. It's not the norm but having infant photo ID could also be helpful .... or it could complicate matters when suffering an annoying paranoid busybody may be part of the picture.
If the airlines want to be sensible about the matter, they can. Also, they could make the infant lap child allowance contingent upon the child making a weight cut-off.
Last edited by GUWonder; Aug 9, 2012 at 2:02 pm
Aug 9, 2012, 2:31 pm
#52
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Wow. I had no intention of getting into a contest with you or provoke you to start hurling insults at "busybody" employees just trying to do their job by enforcing the FAR's. I was just trying to offer some helpful advice to make parents travel easier.
I'll refrain from commenting anymore in this thread and let everyone resume the mud throwing at each other.
I'll refrain from commenting anymore in this thread and let everyone resume the mud throwing at each other.
Aug 9, 2012, 3:01 pm
#53
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Given the above post's mischaracterizations are multiple, I won't even get into addressing them all. There is no FAR that generally requires domestic-flying children under the age of 2 to have a birth certificate, certified or otherwise, in order to fly on a common carrier within the US, even if the flight were to route over foreign airspace and/or waters.
Aug 9, 2012, 3:42 pm
#55
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Given the above post's mischaracterizations are multiple, I won't even get into addressing them all. There is no FAR that generally requires domestic-flying children under the age of 2 to have a birth certificate, certified or otherwise, in order to fly on a common carrier within the US, even if the flight were to route over foreign airspace and/or waters.
Aug 9, 2012, 4:41 pm
#56
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I believe that the FARs the OP (flight attendant?) referenced have to do with requirements for passengers to be seated and restrained (wearing seatbelts) during take-offs and landings. This has nothing to do with any required documentation. "Lap children" must be under a certain age in order to be restrained solely in the lap of another person. I would bet that in the event of an accident, the airline would be in trouble if that large lap child was in fact over the legal age, not the parent who lied in order to avoid having to pay for a separate ticket. The FARs may not require documentation for the lap child, but the airline (who would be liable) has every right to ask for some form of proof of the child's age. IANAL, YMMV.
Which FAR is there that mandates that the airline confirm via reference to ink-on-paper documents that the age of a domestic-flying lap child American infant is what a parent/guardian claims? [Sounds like a "may" above is not even a "may".] Even the annoying, paranoid government busybodies -- claiming "security" to get their way -- have carved out exceptions for young minors when it comes to ID checks.
Aug 9, 2012, 5:38 pm
#57
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I wouldn't bet on all of that like the above post suggests you would, but I am familiar with the FAR to which you are referring.
Which FAR is there that mandates that the airline confirm via reference to ink-on-paper documents that the age of a domestic-flying lap child American infant is what a parent/guardian claims? [Sounds like a "may" above is not even a "may".] Even the annoying, paranoid government busybodies -- claiming "security" to get their way -- have carved out exceptions for young minors when it comes to ID checks.
Which FAR is there that mandates that the airline confirm via reference to ink-on-paper documents that the age of a domestic-flying lap child American infant is what a parent/guardian claims? [Sounds like a "may" above is not even a "may".] Even the annoying, paranoid government busybodies -- claiming "security" to get their way -- have carved out exceptions for young minors when it comes to ID checks.
Aug 9, 2012, 5:41 pm
#58
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and for the sake of getting back on topic... here is the original query.
As a last hurrah before I started my new job (one which involves a lot of travel, hence my discovery of FlyerTalk...HI!!!), my husband and I took a last minute trip to St. Croix, USVI, bringing along our 13 month old daughter.
We have flown with her many many times since her birth and have never once been asked for her birth certificate or for any other form of ID for her, or that proves our relationship to her. Until this trip.
We were surprised to discover a CBP checkpoint upon entry into STX for our departing flight...given that there are only 4 flights a day from STX, and they all land in either SJU or MIA - there simply isn't such a thing as an international flight from STX.
Upon reaching the CBP officer, he examined our boarding passes and DLs (no passports, since we never left the US...), and asked us for our daughter's birth certificate. I told him I didn't have it with us. He asked why not. I replied that I wasn't aware that we needed it, as we had never left the US. He asked, in a rather threatening voice "Well how do I know she's yours?". I was shocked, and stammered that we had brought her with us to visit family in St. Croix. At this point, I began to get upset, as his tone seemed to indicate that if we weren't able to somehow prove that she was our daughter, she would be taken from us...
at which point, US Territory or no, I would have caused an international incident. Our daughter sensed my anxiety and began to get upset herself, clinging to my neck and trying to get me to take her away from the checkpoint. The officer quite rudely told us to move along, and that 'next time you'd better have her birth certificate"...at which point we then moved to the next stage of the ridiculousness that is travel through STX, involving our suitcases being removed from the CBP/AG conveyor by persons unknown, and the sheer magnitude of indifference displayed over the matter by every single uniformed person to whom we alerted the problem...but that's another thread entirely.
My question here is this: given that we never left US soil, why was I supposed to have my daughter's birth certificate?
Moreover, her birth certificate does not have a photo, fingerprints, hand prints, foot prints, or any shred of information that links that particular piece of paper to her physical person. So what's the point? Were I a person of nefarious intent to kidnap a toddler who could be my clone and yet isn't my child, I could take any old birth certificate belonging to a child around the same age and use it.
We have flown with her many many times since her birth and have never once been asked for her birth certificate or for any other form of ID for her, or that proves our relationship to her. Until this trip.
We were surprised to discover a CBP checkpoint upon entry into STX for our departing flight...given that there are only 4 flights a day from STX, and they all land in either SJU or MIA - there simply isn't such a thing as an international flight from STX.
Upon reaching the CBP officer, he examined our boarding passes and DLs (no passports, since we never left the US...), and asked us for our daughter's birth certificate. I told him I didn't have it with us. He asked why not. I replied that I wasn't aware that we needed it, as we had never left the US. He asked, in a rather threatening voice "Well how do I know she's yours?". I was shocked, and stammered that we had brought her with us to visit family in St. Croix. At this point, I began to get upset, as his tone seemed to indicate that if we weren't able to somehow prove that she was our daughter, she would be taken from us...
at which point, US Territory or no, I would have caused an international incident. Our daughter sensed my anxiety and began to get upset herself, clinging to my neck and trying to get me to take her away from the checkpoint. The officer quite rudely told us to move along, and that 'next time you'd better have her birth certificate"...at which point we then moved to the next stage of the ridiculousness that is travel through STX, involving our suitcases being removed from the CBP/AG conveyor by persons unknown, and the sheer magnitude of indifference displayed over the matter by every single uniformed person to whom we alerted the problem...but that's another thread entirely. My question here is this: given that we never left US soil, why was I supposed to have my daughter's birth certificate?
Moreover, her birth certificate does not have a photo, fingerprints, hand prints, foot prints, or any shred of information that links that particular piece of paper to her physical person. So what's the point? Were I a person of nefarious intent to kidnap a toddler who could be my clone and yet isn't my child, I could take any old birth certificate belonging to a child around the same age and use it.
Aug 9, 2012, 6:11 pm
#59
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There is no FAR (as "far" as I am aware) requiring that an airline confirm the age of a lap child allowed onto a departing flight, but there may be a liability penalty to the airline that hasn't done so in the event of any accident where the lap child was injured or caused injury to another by flying unrestrained through the passenger compartment. The only way to steer clear of all gray areas in this area would be to require that a seat (with age appropriate restraint systems) be available for ALL passengers, period. In the current system of allowing exemptions for lap children under the age of two, I am pretty sure that the airline has the right to refuse carriage to any child that appears to be over the age of two. This has nothing to do with "security" of course! In an age of litigation, it's just a matter of CYA for the airlines. (not TSA or Border control)
I wouldn't be as sure as you are that "the airline has the right to refuse carriage to any child that appears to be over the age of two".
The FAR relevant to lap child infants has everything to do with safety and security, even of the financial and/or job (in)security sort.
Aug 9, 2012, 6:12 pm
#60
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 158
To answer the Original Post by Trillias:
Actually you did leave the United States Of America. The USVI are an inhabited insular area of the United States. An insular area is a United States territory that is neither a part of one of the 50 U.S. states nor the District of Columbia, the federal district of the U.S.
This link may help to clarify the difference for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_area
CBP is a combination of Immigration, Customs and Agriculture. Previous to the formation of DHS these were separate agencies.
From Help CBP the following information.
For Immigration purposes:
Will travelers from U.S. territories need to present a passport to enter the United States?
U.S. Citizens and Lawful Permanent Residents (LPR's) who travel directly between parts of the United States, which includes Guam, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Swains Island and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (CNMI), without touching at a foreign port or place, are not required to present a valid U.S. Passport or U.S. Green Card. However, it is recommended that travelers bring a government issued photo ID and copy of birth certificate.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...gin-islands%2C
For Customs Purposes:
Do I have to clear Customs when traveling to U.S. insular possessions (U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, or Guam)? If so, what are my duty exemptions?
When traveling to one of the U.S. insular possessions, such as the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, or Guam, you are required to clear Customs and Border Protection and are entitled to a $1,600 duty-free exemption, as long as you are there for 48 hours or more. After your $1,600 duty-free exemption you will be required to pay a flat rate of 1.5% on the next $1,000 worth of goods you purchased while you were there. The remaining balance of your goods after $2,200 will be assessed duty based on the commodity and country of origin. For duty amounts on the remaining balance, you can contact the port through which you intend to arrive in the U.S. and request an Import Specialist.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...virgin-islands,
Actually you did leave the United States Of America. The USVI are an inhabited insular area of the United States. An insular area is a United States territory that is neither a part of one of the 50 U.S. states nor the District of Columbia, the federal district of the U.S.
This link may help to clarify the difference for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_area
CBP is a combination of Immigration, Customs and Agriculture. Previous to the formation of DHS these were separate agencies.
From Help CBP the following information.
For Immigration purposes:
Will travelers from U.S. territories need to present a passport to enter the United States?
U.S. Citizens and Lawful Permanent Residents (LPR's) who travel directly between parts of the United States, which includes Guam, Puerto Rico, U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Swains Island and the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands (CNMI), without touching at a foreign port or place, are not required to present a valid U.S. Passport or U.S. Green Card. However, it is recommended that travelers bring a government issued photo ID and copy of birth certificate.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...gin-islands%2C
For Customs Purposes:
Do I have to clear Customs when traveling to U.S. insular possessions (U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, or Guam)? If so, what are my duty exemptions?
When traveling to one of the U.S. insular possessions, such as the U.S. Virgin Islands, American Samoa, or Guam, you are required to clear Customs and Border Protection and are entitled to a $1,600 duty-free exemption, as long as you are there for 48 hours or more. After your $1,600 duty-free exemption you will be required to pay a flat rate of 1.5% on the next $1,000 worth of goods you purchased while you were there. The remaining balance of your goods after $2,200 will be assessed duty based on the commodity and country of origin. For duty amounts on the remaining balance, you can contact the port through which you intend to arrive in the U.S. and request an Import Specialist.
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...virgin-islands,
Last edited by OnTheAsile; Aug 9, 2012 at 7:10 pm