confiscating non-"weapons"
Jul 18, 2012 | 12:21 pm
#137
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Southwest Florida
Programs: AA lifetime Gold , DL Gold, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 572
One of the more poorly-worded (or brilliantly worded) pieces of regulation I've seen.
I kind of wonder what would have transpired if the OP had provided his pilot's certificate. What then?
If it was expired, I'm sure that would have been pointed out. So? I have kept old IDs for a variety of reasons - nothing illegal about it. Would the agent have black-lighted it? What fields would have been checked? Would a copy have been taken (almost certainly 'yes')? If the agent saw something he didn't like on the certificate, would he have used it as grounds to confiscate it or to prevent the OP from entering the sterile area?
I kind of wonder what would have transpired if the OP had provided his pilot's certificate. What then?
If it was expired, I'm sure that would have been pointed out. So? I have kept old IDs for a variety of reasons - nothing illegal about it. Would the agent have black-lighted it? What fields would have been checked? Would a copy have been taken (almost certainly 'yes')? If the agent saw something he didn't like on the certificate, would he have used it as grounds to confiscate it or to prevent the OP from entering the sterile area?
A pilots or mechanics FAA certificate never expires and never needs renewal, therefore there is no expiration date on any of these certificates.
Mr. Elliott
Jul 18, 2012 | 1:16 pm
#138
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: in the sky
Posts: 490
But there are requirements to meet (for a pilot at least) certain levels of flight currency in order to exercise the privillages outlined by the type of certificate held. If someone stops flying for a period of time, they would need to meet these requirements before acting as PIC again. What's next, TSA demanding to see our personal log books? (which we are not necessarily required to keep)
Jul 18, 2012 | 1:24 pm
#139
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 8,957
Bierfeldt v. Napolitano. The link also has a link to the TSA's agreement with the ACLU.
In the lawsuit, Bierfeldt and the ACLU sought a court order requiring the TSA to bring its search policies into line with constitutional requirements for passenger privacy, arguing that passengers moving through pre-flight screening can only be subject to searches aimed at keeping weapons and explosives off airplanes. Bierfeldts experience proved that TSA searches had taken on a much broader scope.
In September, eight days before the governments response to the ACLU lawsuit was due, the TSA issued a new directive governing passenger screening searches. The new policy states clearly that screening may not be conducted to detect evidence of crimes unrelated to transportation security. In October, the TSA issued a second directive addressing the issues raised in the ACLUs lawsuit, stating that traveling with large amounts of currency is not illegal, and that to the extent bulk quantities of cash warrant searching, it is only to further security objectives.
In September, eight days before the governments response to the ACLU lawsuit was due, the TSA issued a new directive governing passenger screening searches. The new policy states clearly that screening may not be conducted to detect evidence of crimes unrelated to transportation security. In October, the TSA issued a second directive addressing the issues raised in the ACLUs lawsuit, stating that traveling with large amounts of currency is not illegal, and that to the extent bulk quantities of cash warrant searching, it is only to further security objectives.
Jul 18, 2012 | 1:33 pm
#140
Join Date: Jul 2006
Programs: United
Posts: 2,710
Thanks. Is there an actual agreement? I found the revised Management Directive and also this from the ACLU:
The ACLU wanted searches to only be about "keeping weapons and explosives off planes", but it appears that all they got was screening may not be conducted to detect evidence of crimes unrelated to transportation security. As such, I can see the TSA saying the charts were related to "transportation security" and as such did not violate the directive. What do you think might happen if one walked through with the TSA Management Directive in hand?
The ACLU wanted searches to only be about "keeping weapons and explosives off planes", but it appears that all they got was screening may not be conducted to detect evidence of crimes unrelated to transportation security. As such, I can see the TSA saying the charts were related to "transportation security" and as such did not violate the directive. What do you think might happen if one walked through with the TSA Management Directive in hand?
Jul 18, 2012 | 1:43 pm
#141
Join Date: Dec 2007
Programs: DL, WN, US, Avis, AA
Posts: 663
I imagine the lack of an expiration date would have been "proof" that the license was a fake.
Jul 18, 2012 | 2:32 pm
#142
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: in the sky
Posts: 490
Actually pilots' licenses don't have an expiration date. A licensed pilot is always a licensed pilot unless the FAA pulls it. However; being authorized to exercise the privileges of a pilot is something that can "expire" pretty quickly, depending on the rating and type of flight to be undertaken.
I imagine the lack of an expiration date would have been "proof" that the license was a fake.
I imagine the lack of an expiration date would have been "proof" that the license was a fake.
Last edited by loops; Jul 18, 2012 at 2:46 pm
Jul 18, 2012 | 2:50 pm
#143
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 31,004
The silliness that a person would think that the contents of a book, map, or other periodical is a threat is really confounding.
TSA can't even do the job of screening for WEI well which is all they are authorized to do.
For TSA to attempt policing other areas is guaranteed failure.
TSA can't even do the job of screening for WEI well which is all they are authorized to do.
For TSA to attempt policing other areas is guaranteed failure.
Jul 18, 2012 | 2:58 pm
#144
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: in the sky
Posts: 490
and for another exciting development...
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/wa..._campaign=8315
Well at least the "no fly list" is an infallible resource!
/sarcasm
Well at least the "no fly list" is an infallible resource!
/sarcasm
Jul 18, 2012 | 4:05 pm
#146
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: DFW
Programs: AS, BA, AA
Posts: 3,670
Chuck is polite, and in my experience, a complaint routed through him is effective. I have his number saved in my cell phone since I'm based in DFW. I would highly recommend that OP file a complaint, because this seems like a training issue. Several court cases have affirmed that the TSA has no right to look at the contents of documents, only to insure that no weapons are hidden in the documents. Specifically, the Bierfeldt case, the case with the sequential checks, and the student with Arabic flashcards.
You have just been relegated to my ignore list. I'm not comfortable reading the posts of anyone who speaks seriously about extinguishing genetic lines and treating people as sub-human. Especially when they claim they are part of an organization that takes action on these principles.
Jul 18, 2012 | 5:30 pm
#147
Join Date: Dec 2007
Programs: DL, WN, US, Avis, AA
Posts: 663
I wholeheartedly agree that TSA employees can be arbitrary and capricious. They will also presume that they have more authority than is actually the case. That's why I will never "surrender upon request" my pilot's license to a TSA employee. N.B. the regulation states that I "must present it for inspection upon a request from TSA." To my mind "present for inspection" means that a TSA person can look all he wants but not touch. The license would never leave my hand.
Jul 18, 2012 | 6:40 pm
#148
Join Date: Nov 2008
Programs: AA EXP, 2mm; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 325
Getting back on topic, I note that nowhere in the thread does anyone (including the OP) discuss why she didn't escalate to a supervisor. There are plenty of examples of TSOs making bad decisions. Would the supervisor have said "Let's not be silly now... it's a map. She can take a map on board an aircraft"?
Unfortunately we'll never know, but seems to me when one encounters silly decision-making by TSOs, at minimum one should escalate to a supervisor. Yes, some will back the TSO. Others won't. Seems like there's little to lose but time, in this case, and I'm wondering why the OP didn't try that approach, especially since it still would've given her a moral victory and might've actually resulted in the TSO getting reprimanded.
Unfortunately we'll never know, but seems to me when one encounters silly decision-making by TSOs, at minimum one should escalate to a supervisor. Yes, some will back the TSO. Others won't. Seems like there's little to lose but time, in this case, and I'm wondering why the OP didn't try that approach, especially since it still would've given her a moral victory and might've actually resulted in the TSO getting reprimanded.
Jul 18, 2012 | 6:45 pm
#149
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,728
I'm honestly unsurprised by people who simply walk away from the TSA checkpoint with a bad taste and choose not to fly again.
Jul 23, 2012 | 9:35 am
#150
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: DFW
Programs: AA EXP, MR Gold, HH Gold
Posts: 926
Sorry I didn't answer some of these questions, I have been internet-less for a while.
Someone already pointed out why I was wary of showing my certificate to the TSO - beyond the fact it was none of his business. Yes, the TSA does have quite a bit of nasty power over us, and that's not something I ever want to happen. T-the-B is dead on with saying they can took all the want, but not touch - but I wasn't even willing to let them do that that night.
As far as escalating, I already did briefly mention why I didn't - I was in a hurry, hungry, and wanted dinner. But more than that, I know what happened last time I escalated - I was subjected to a retaliatory grope. I simply don't see how escalating would have solved anything.
Someone already pointed out why I was wary of showing my certificate to the TSO - beyond the fact it was none of his business. Yes, the TSA does have quite a bit of nasty power over us, and that's not something I ever want to happen. T-the-B is dead on with saying they can took all the want, but not touch - but I wasn't even willing to let them do that that night.
As far as escalating, I already did briefly mention why I didn't - I was in a hurry, hungry, and wanted dinner. But more than that, I know what happened last time I escalated - I was subjected to a retaliatory grope. I simply don't see how escalating would have solved anything.