GUWonder

[I had already been there and gotten the PDFs about what happened in conference. I just don't believe in forcing horses to drink water if they aren't thirsty. ]

Unfortunately, I expect this won't be the first and last time that this ugly approach of restricting/revoking/denying passports finds advocates in Congress.

susiesan

Since unless one is a lawyer it is virtually impossible to decipher these bills by reading them, I will take your word GUWonder that you read it and are assuring us that there is nothing about revoking passports for tax debts in THIS bill. Thanks for being on the lookout for us non lawyers out here.

GUWonder

Of those legislators who are lawyers, they never read all of the bills upon which they vote -- most of them have no clue about what all is in all the legislation for which they voted. As far as I am concerned, this is a sign of the government legislators trying to do way too much in too many ways while doing way too little to make sure the government hasn't done way too much. The result is that the liberty of most all US persons is a grace granted at the whim of the government since things are so complicated that just about anyone can be up for civil or criminal penalties.

Combat Medic

Sometimes they don't even vote when they are voting.
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=27237

sbagdon

I might be bringing a knife to a gunfight, yet here goes...

The US Constitution states "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.". And Paul v. Virginia dealt with ingress/egress between states. Yet I can't find a reference that the government has any responsilbity to protect freedome-of-movement across country borders. If someone really wanted to leave the country, I'm sure someone would find a way (as there's exceptions to the revoke clause, there's always a way).

I'd be more concerned with states use of revoking of driver's licenses for monetary purposes. The list of valid reasons states can revoke a dl is approaching staggering.

GUWonder

http://www.newsmax.com/US/irs-highwa...7/05/id/444486

susiesan

Thanks, GUWonder for the article. This makes it official, for now. I don't have to worry about losing my US passport when I immigrate out of the US and take up residence elsewhere.

sbagdon

Read the article, and found this interesting... the person had to have significant debt (excess of $50k usd), and have no payment or resolution plan in place, then the IRS would ask State to review the passport (<i>that's how I'm reading it</i>). State could just as well say "pound sand, IRS".

I'm the last person to give the IRS a free pass, yet... in general, if a taxpayer is proactively seeking resolution of a tax issue, even if that resolution involves not paying any taxes (such as insolvency) and they just want to close the books, the IRS will, in general, bend over backwards to work with the taxpayer. My impression was that this bill was for those who owed a lot of money, refused or were unable to come to an agreement, which by many definitions that would make them a flight risk.

The previous welfare/child-support issue woudl have required State to revoke the passport (as I'm reading this). Different story, if true.

kebosabi

Last time I went to Tijuana, nobody checked my US passport upon entry to Mexico.

GUWonder

It would have required State to do more than merely "review" things.

I don't generally agree with Sensenbrenner, but on this he's not only right, he's correct.

thomwithanh

I'm honestly surprised somebody hasn't proposed revoking or denying passports for other kinds of unpaid debt (credit cards, student loans, medical bills, etc...) The Gulf nations have already been doing it for decades ...

GUWonder

I am aware of some practices in the GCC area of denying passports, including that of denying passports to citizens with civil debts. But, unlike with the US, they have far more recent history of locking up honest, non-violent individuals .... even for unpaid commercial debts. Talk about running debtors' prisons of a sort.

China and GCC countries aren't a model of how the US or anyone else should restrict the travel rights of ordinary citizens, burdened by debt or not.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/18275028-post16.html

Unfortunately, it is to be expected that this will be attempted again and expanded to cover additional debts too.

thomwithanh

Just to clarify: I was not even remotely suggesting that we start taking after the GCC and China and criminalize debt (although I'm sure there are people in our government who would love to...) Fraud notwithstanding, debtors are not criminals and should not be treated like criminals.

I've heard the horror stories of expat workers in the Middle East who lost their jobs and then are prevented from leaving the country or renewing their work visas when they fall behind on their rent, car payments, or credit cards. One British woman has been stuck in Bahrain for over ten years without any means to support herself and locked up four separate times for the same debt.

GUWonder

Unfortunately, this (passport denial/revocation) kind of item has raised its ugly head again and is now in the 2015 MAP-21 highway spending bill currently in Congress.

DIFIN

we already have that in the 100 mile constitution free zone.

I have been stopped 90 miles inside the border in Arizona