GaryD

TSA procedures are in place at every US airport. Are the procedures at Canada and Mexico airports less onerous, less harmful to our rights and dignity and health? How exactly do they differ? Wouldn't publicizing those differences be a useful exercise?

Rather than driving or staying home (or using skype), wouldn't an increase in international travel originating at cross-border airports send the correct "message", even if it costs each of us a bit more?

First two questions, please answer, thanks. Second two, rhetorical.

gojirasan

Actually both have been discussed here. I'm not sure about Mexico, but I don't think they have any NoS machines and you don't have to engage in any unwanted sexual activity to get on an aircraft.

As for Canada, the consensus seems to be that CATSA agents are usually far more polite and human than their counterparts in the TSA and that they almost never touch genitals in their patdowns. I think there was just one airport that you had to watch out for. Where there have been some reports of abuse. I can't recall which one except that it wasn't Montreal or Toronto or Vancouver where most Americans would fly out of.

Unfortunately Canada does have and use MMW NoS machines and they don't even have ATR. You and your private parts would be fully visible in the CATSA equivalent of the perv booth. The selection is truly (pseudo)random. A machine selects the victims. Not a human. The so called 'opt out' consists of a non-genital patdown. And I don't think they run their fingers through your hair or inside your waistband. Although there have been some reports of the waistband thing on this forum. Not sure if they touch your buttocks or not.

Worst countries in the world to fly out of:
1. The US: Interrogation, genital contact, x-ray strip searches, rudeness, treated like a criminal at all times by angry, animal-like individuals.
2. The UK: X-ray strip searches. Sexual activity with a screener is not an option to avoid the strip search if selected. The only option is not to fly that day. Similar to the US if you are averse to genital contact with a screener in order to fly. It could be argued that the UK is actually worse than the US if you happen to live near one of the airports with the new MMW ATR NoS, but you only have a 50% chance of making it through one of those new machines unmolested. So effectively it is not much better.
3. Canada: MMW NoS. Machines do the selecting, but not the image viewing. Microwave strip searches if you are selected. Non-genital patdown if you 'opt out'. Other than the US and UK, the worst country in the world to fly out of.

Mad_Max_Esq

Mexico (CUN, specifically): Shoes on, WTMD, no grope. Didn't see or hear of a single plane falling out of the sky.

nachtnebel

all of terrorists there are too busy shooting each other and raiding the competitor's stashes.

trode

Regarding Canada.

I've twice flown YVR to FRA in the past twelve months, once with family and once solo. In both trips through CATSA, no travelers were selected for the MMW scanner at any time I could see. Everyone went through the WTMD. No shoe removal, either. It was very European.

More time-consuming was convincing the Canadian border patrol to let us/me drive a rental car across the US-Canadian border to get to their nice airport. When I was solo, they spent an hour searching the car before they let me proceed. Fortunately, I had plenty of time to make my flight. If I have to do this trip again, I plan to cross the border on a train or a bus.

König

Was this at the Surrey-Blaine crossing? I found that the CBSA agents are ones of the rudest and most unwelcoming there. Very different experience at the Aldergrove-Lynden crossing, but it's not very practical if you drive to the airport.

Wally Bird

Lynden is not necessarily any better; it's a crap shoot depending on the agents on duty. I'm often pulled aside at both Lynden and the Peace Arch (I fit a 'profile' I guess) and the latter is always more civilized. Some real <redacted>s work the Canadian side at Lynden.

NoMiddleSeat

What I find interesting is at least at YYZ, T1 US US bound security you can see the MMW machine operator and video screen as its hung on the exit side of the machine. CATSA folks are a heck of a lot nicer, perhaps because they haven't got a self inflated self of themselves - no badge perhaps?
The US system where the WBI operator unseen in some private room I've always thought is sort of creepy... mental images of some perv in a darkened room come to mind.

GaryD

Crossing by land into Canada or Mexico is better than the TSA procedure at US airports, and the airport procedures there are better too. I'm going to urge people to use the nearest airport in Canada or Mexico for departures, rather than any US airport. For arrivals, US airports will still do. So for a trip from Seattle to San Diego, use Vancouver instead, and for the return, use Tijuana instead. Quite a hike for most other people (and probably a lousy connection in every case), but it's the thought (and the meme) that counts.

Such a movement might even lead airlines to start offering better selections from those cross-border airports. Let the free market decide, the American way!

mre5765

Don't you mean millimeter wave?

Spex

That's funny (not really)…pretty soon we'll see Americans invading our border airports to protest the TSA procedures and the Canadians will be invading the US border airports looking for cheaper fares

What a mental image

gojirasan

I believe the microwave spectrum is considered to be anything from 1-100 Ghz. IIRC, the L3 devices operate at frequencies between 26-30 Ghz. So they are microwaves. They might also be considered millimeter waves depending on how you choose to define them.

The wavelengths that correspond to the L3 frequencies range between 1 cm (30 Ghz) and 1.15 cm (26 Ghz). Actually 30 Ghz is a tiny bit less than 1 cm in wavelength. In order to continue to measure the waves in centimeters you would have to start using fractions less than 1. So it makes more sense to use millimeters. Hence the term millimeter waves. Notice that by this definition only the very top of the L3 frequency range would technically qualify.

There are a few different systems of radio frequency banding in common use. The 'Ka' designation is from the IEEE system and represents the range of frequencies from 26.5 to 40 Ghz. So the L3 frequencies fall at the the very bottom of this range. But this range does extend into the millimeter wavelengths. So that seems like at least some justification for calling the L3 NoS an MMW machine.

However I think the ITU system is more responsible for the term millimeter waves. In the ITU system the L3 frequencies would lie at the very top of the SHF (Super High Frequency) band which consists of frequencies between 3 and 30 Ghz and wavelengths between 1 and 10 cm. I suppose you could call the EM waves in this band centimeter waves although I don't think anyone does.

The next ITU band is the EHF (Extremely High Frequency) band which starts at 30 Ghz and continues all the way up to 300 Ghz with wavelengths between 1 and 10 mm. Hence millimeter waves. By this definition the L3 machines seem to just miss the category. You might get them under the wire by considering that the Ka band is the first IEEE band that includes millimeter waves, but it's a bit iffy since nearly all the L3 EM waves can be measured in centimeters greater than 1.

BubbaLoop

Canada separates US-bound and non-US-bound passengers. Non-US bound security has no full body scanners, shoe removal or other nonsense (at least until the last time I flew from there, maybe a year ago). The interesting thing is that flying from Canada to South America involves extensive hours over US airspace, but leaving shoes on is OK. And those planes donīt fall out of the sky either...

exbayern

But unfortunately the US government still wants your personal data, even if you have no intention of ever setting foot in the US.

I would disagree with gojirasan's assessment (And wonder how often you fly out of Canada). Bubbaloop is more realistic about the situation. Scanners are very, very rarely in use, if at all, and one can opt out and one certainly doesn't have a pat down anything remotely like the TSA pat down.

Nor does wearing a skirt automatically trigger the need for a pat down, unlike in many/most US airports. One does not need to remove cardigans, unlike in many/most US airports. Screeners are generally polite and tend to speak more than one language.

There are only 4 countries in the western world using airport scanners with any regularity; 3 of those do not use them at primary, do not have them at many airports/terminals, and 2 allow one to opt out without a retaliatory harsh and invasive pat down.

I understand people wanting to feel better about the US situation by comparing the US situation to Canada, the UK, or AMS, but the reality is that the situation is very different in those countries, and nothing near the scale of screening in the US.

Wally Bird

All major Canadian airports have body scanners now, no distinction between destination. All still have WTMDs and you can choose which you want BUT can be directed to the scanner by random (machine) selection. Opt-out works the same without the patronizing or retaliation.