Professional gamblers vs. DEA
Sep 14, 2011 | 1:14 pm
#31
Join Date: May 2005
Location: MIA/SJU/MCO
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Posts: 3,333
TSA screeners in San Juan.... San Juan is a major drug shipment center and runs on a different mentality than the rest of the US. If you have large amounts in cash in PR, you're either involved in politics, drugs, or both. And if they don't recognize your name as a politician, they automatically assume you're into drugs.
Did the TSA overstep their bounds? Yes. Will anyone in PR do a thing about it? No.
Did the TSA overstep their bounds? Yes. Will anyone in PR do a thing about it? No.
Sep 14, 2011 | 2:47 pm
#32
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC & Delhi
Programs: CO Pres. Plat, SPG
Posts: 546
What is worse, if you make a cash payment to anyone greater than $10k, the business is required to file a FINCEN/IRS form 8300. Where this might come into play is a private cash transaction: Let's say you seek the advice of an attorney when a DEA agent threatens to seize your money for arbitrary and capricious reasons. The attorney agrees to represent you, in exchange for a retainer of $10k. You give him $8k cash and a $2k cashier's check. The attorney is now required to file the FINCEN 8300 letting the IRS (and presumably the DEA) know you paid cash to a lawyer. That's why my patent attorney prefers personal checks or credit card payments. The IRS/DEA/Treasury/Gov't can simply follow the money and gain a great deal of knowledge about out from the money trail.
They quickly moved the closing to the bank down the street where the tellers kindly counted and bundled the money for deposit.
Sep 14, 2011 | 3:25 pm
#33
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Orange County (SNA) CA, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, Hertz Gold
Posts: 1,789
I recently had to go to Tanzania with $25,000 in cash for some business we were doing there. I met a container there that we had shipped from Dubai, cleared it through customs in Zanzibar and sold the contents over the course of the next week or so, all cash transactions. I came back to the states with a little over $45,000 in cash, which I declared on the form coming back into the US.
No-one questioned me or asked me anything about the cash and I never thought anything of it. Based on what happened in this story, do I run the risk of having funds over $10K confiscated whether I declare them or not?
Especially in my case as there really isn't documentation I could carry, other than a bank statement showing $25K being withdrawn and maybe all the paperwork showing what we paid in import taxes etc.
No-one questioned me or asked me anything about the cash and I never thought anything of it. Based on what happened in this story, do I run the risk of having funds over $10K confiscated whether I declare them or not?
Especially in my case as there really isn't documentation I could carry, other than a bank statement showing $25K being withdrawn and maybe all the paperwork showing what we paid in import taxes etc.
Sep 14, 2011 | 5:29 pm
#34
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
I recently had to go to Tanzania with $25,000 in cash for some business we were doing there. I met a container there that we had shipped from Dubai, cleared it through customs in Zanzibar and sold the contents over the course of the next week or so, all cash transactions. I came back to the states with a little over $45,000 in cash, which I declared on the form coming back into the US.
No-one questioned me or asked me anything about the cash and I never thought anything of it. Based on what happened in this story, do I run the risk of having funds over $10K confiscated whether I declare them or not?
No-one questioned me or asked me anything about the cash and I never thought anything of it. Based on what happened in this story, do I run the risk of having funds over $10K confiscated whether I declare them or not?
Sep 14, 2011 | 5:33 pm
#35
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 360
In August 2006, professional gamblers and Nevada residents Gina Fiore and Keith Gipson attempted to return from San Juan to Las Vegas carrying $97,000 in cash ($30k in "seed" money plus $67k in gambling proceeds). TSA screeners in San Juan alerted the DEA. When Fiore and Gipson arrived in Atlanta for their connecting flight to Las Vegas, DEA agents questioned them and, ultimately, seized the funds, refusing to leave them even enough for cab fare.
Later, after having been provided abundant documentation showing that the funds seized were in fact legitimate gambling proceeds and not drug trafficking monies, the lead agent submitted a "misleading" probable cause affidavit to support the forfeiture of the funds. The Asst. US attorney assigned to the case ultimately refused to go forward due to the lack of probable cause. The $97k was returned to Fiore and Gipson some 7 months after it was seized.
Fiore and Gipson sued the Atlanta DEA agents in federal district court in Nevada, alleging violation of their constitutional rights. The district court dismissed the case for lack of personal jurisdiction over the DEA agents, finding that the alleged violations took place in Atlanta and not Nevada.
Today, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed, holding that even though the initial seizure occurred in Atlanta and was thus not actionable in Nevada, the lead DEA agent's action in pursuing the forfeiture of the funds were directed at Fiore and Gipson in Nevada and were intended to affect them in Nevada and were, for that reason actionable in Nevada.
What this means is that even though you can't sue in your home state for actions that were taken by the TSA or others at an airport elsewhere, if government agents continue to "pursue" you in your home state, by initiating unlawful forfeiture proceedings, for example, as occurred here, you can sue them on your home turf. A small victory for travelers.
See the Ninth Circuit decision here.
Later, after having been provided abundant documentation showing that the funds seized were in fact legitimate gambling proceeds and not drug trafficking monies, the lead agent submitted a "misleading" probable cause affidavit to support the forfeiture of the funds. The Asst. US attorney assigned to the case ultimately refused to go forward due to the lack of probable cause. The $97k was returned to Fiore and Gipson some 7 months after it was seized.
Fiore and Gipson sued the Atlanta DEA agents in federal district court in Nevada, alleging violation of their constitutional rights. The district court dismissed the case for lack of personal jurisdiction over the DEA agents, finding that the alleged violations took place in Atlanta and not Nevada.
Today, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed, holding that even though the initial seizure occurred in Atlanta and was thus not actionable in Nevada, the lead DEA agent's action in pursuing the forfeiture of the funds were directed at Fiore and Gipson in Nevada and were intended to affect them in Nevada and were, for that reason actionable in Nevada.
What this means is that even though you can't sue in your home state for actions that were taken by the TSA or others at an airport elsewhere, if government agents continue to "pursue" you in your home state, by initiating unlawful forfeiture proceedings, for example, as occurred here, you can sue them on your home turf. A small victory for travelers.
See the Ninth Circuit decision here.
Last edited by 4nsicdoc; Sep 14, 2011 at 5:49 pm Reason: some clerk stole all the vees.
Sep 14, 2011 | 6:05 pm
#36
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Orange County (SNA) CA, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, Hertz Gold
Posts: 1,789
. So how do I protect myself? Carry copies of bank statements showing x amount in withdrawals (the amount I'm taking with me) but there really isn't any paper trail per se for the amounts I'm bringing back with me.In case you guys don't know, there is a very active "underground" in these countries where for a fee you can leave money there in local currency and pick up the equivalent in the US in $. I'd prefer not to do that for a number of reasons but it seems that law abiding citizens like myself would be forced to skirt the rules rather than run the risk of having our funds seized for no reason
Sep 14, 2011 | 6:49 pm
#37
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Posts: 36,062
So how do I protect myself? Carry copies of bank statements showing x amount in withdrawals (the amount I'm taking with me) but there really isn't any paper trail per se for the amounts I'm bringing back with me.
Sep 14, 2011 | 10:52 pm
#38
Original Member
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Orange County, CA, USA
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Don't confuse travel with seizure. Your cash, your car, your clothes and anything else you own are subject to seizure anywhere in the U.S. if the DEA (or many other agencies) believe that they have the correct legal evidence. So, for example, if you are legally carrying that same cash from your house in the U.S. to your bank in the U.S., it is still subject to seizure. In fact, if you deposit the cash in the bank it is still subject to seizure.
Sep 15, 2011 | 10:40 pm
#39
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Programs: WN A++, Marriott Plat, Avis 1
Posts: 217
Last week a buddy of mine moved from Vegas to Atlanta driving his car full of housewares and a couple of dogs across the country. He mentioned to me that he closed out his local credit union account and was going to taking the cash - approx $10k - with him. I warned him that he had a high probability of having the money stolen by cops and convinced him to draw up a bank check instead. Fortunately, he did. As predicted, he was pulled over without cause by troopers parked at a state line looking for vehicles with out-of-state plates. Long story short: They searched him, placed him in the back of their car and conducted a interview to determine if he was carrying cash or drugs. Most of the questions were bizarre and random simply to gauge his reactions -- basically BDO play. They cut him free after 15 minutes realizing he wasn't a big catch. If he had his cash with him it would be gone now.
Sep 15, 2011 | 11:02 pm
#40
Join Date: Jun 2009
Programs: SSSSS
Posts: 867
Exactly. Even if he makes it past the airport, he can easily have the money taken by police on the drive home via Civil Asset Forfeiture laws. Police say they only need reasonable suspicion that the property is proceeds of criminal activity -- and they can easily say that carrying $45k in cash is enough justification to "suspect" it's either money laundering or drug proceeds. Wa-la, the money is gone. Google "texas highway robbery" or "policing for profit" for an idea on how police are operating in this manner.
Last week a buddy of mine moved from Vegas to Atlanta driving his car full of housewares and a couple of dogs across the country. He mentioned to me that he closed out his local credit union account and was going to taking the cash - approx $10k - with him. I warned him that he had a high probability of having the money stolen by cops and convinced him to draw up a bank check instead. Fortunately, he did. As predicted, he was pulled over without cause by troopers parked at a state line looking for vehicles with out-of-state plates. Long story short: They searched him, placed him in the back of their car and conducted a interview to determine if he was carrying cash or drugs. Most of the questions were bizarre and random simply to gauge his reactions -- basically BDO play. They cut him free after 15 minutes realizing he wasn't a big catch. If he had his cash with him it would be gone now.
Last week a buddy of mine moved from Vegas to Atlanta driving his car full of housewares and a couple of dogs across the country. He mentioned to me that he closed out his local credit union account and was going to taking the cash - approx $10k - with him. I warned him that he had a high probability of having the money stolen by cops and convinced him to draw up a bank check instead. Fortunately, he did. As predicted, he was pulled over without cause by troopers parked at a state line looking for vehicles with out-of-state plates. Long story short: They searched him, placed him in the back of their car and conducted a interview to determine if he was carrying cash or drugs. Most of the questions were bizarre and random simply to gauge his reactions -- basically BDO play. They cut him free after 15 minutes realizing he wasn't a big catch. If he had his cash with him it would be gone now.
Then he wanted to search the truck. Fortunately, I locked and sealed it before I left ABQ and the keys were in my car which by then was 100 miles down the road. He was quite petulant about it too and told me I had to cut off the lock if I couldn't open it. At that point I told him the tools were inside the truck and put out my hand and asked to see a copy of his search warrant. One more call to his boss put that matter to rest and after almost 3 hours I was free to go, without opening the truck.
The next time I drove that route, I figured Kansas and Indiana were nicer states than IA anyway.
Sep 16, 2011 | 10:52 am
#41
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,425
Please let me know when you spot such a candidate. We've gone from dumb (bush) to dumber (obama) it seems in terms of civil liberties. The strong possibility of making it a trifecta with president perry makes me ill.
Sep 16, 2011 | 11:15 am
#42
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Orange County (SNA) CA, AA EXP, Hilton Diamond, Hertz Gold
Posts: 1,789
If carrying paperwork isn't enough, I guess we will have to rethink how we are transporting revenue back and forth as what you are all saying is very troubling
Sep 16, 2011 | 5:52 pm
#43
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posts: 217
Carrying copies of bank statements showing large cash withdrawals are routine as well documents showing that we are involved in international trade (copies of the bill of lading, packing lists etc) wouldn't be enough to show that the proceeds are from legitimate business?
If carrying paperwork isn't enough, I guess we will have to rethink how we are transporting revenue back and forth as what you are all saying is very troubling
If carrying paperwork isn't enough, I guess we will have to rethink how we are transporting revenue back and forth as what you are all saying is very troubling
This article talks about police from one small town of 1000 people that took cash and cars from hundreds of black motorists passing through the interstate over a period of just two years. And it's not just one little town - it's fairly endemic across the south. A typical case.
More.
Sep 17, 2011 | 1:37 pm
#44
Join Date: May 2006
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So the answer is not to put in the additional work it takes to build a case against the drug dealers, the answer is to assume anyone carrying large amounts of cash is guilty.
Pretty shady, particularly when 1) the confiscation takes place immediately, with no unbiased investigation and legal process and 2) there are undoubtedly incentives in place for CBP to pad their numbers with these lucrative and easy 'catches'.
In the end, even if the gamblers get their money back, there's no way to really make them whole. Who reimburses them for time lost, legal costs, etc?
Pretty shady, particularly when 1) the confiscation takes place immediately, with no unbiased investigation and legal process and 2) there are undoubtedly incentives in place for CBP to pad their numbers with these lucrative and easy 'catches'.
In the end, even if the gamblers get their money back, there's no way to really make them whole. Who reimburses them for time lost, legal costs, etc?
State law claims (such as false arrest) made against the federal government generally have to be preceeded with an administrative claim, to which they are allowed 6 months to accept (and send me a check for the $1M that I asked for 
), deny, or fail to respond (most likely). Feb. 29, 2012. 
--Jon
), deny, or fail to respond (most likely). Feb. 29, 2012. --Jon
Sep 19, 2011 | 11:23 am
#45
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Oh gee, did I forget to mention the dog?
What is the statistic I read . . . that 90% of U.S. currency has cocaine residue on it? So, get enough a large enough stack of bills ($97,000 ought to do it!) and it's no surprise the dog handler was able to get his dog to alert to it.
What is the statistic I read . . . that 90% of U.S. currency has cocaine residue on it? So, get enough a large enough stack of bills ($97,000 ought to do it!) and it's no surprise the dog handler was able to get his dog to alert to it.