Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 16972770)

although I think the latter has been changed from a question to a statement, as in "you won't fly today". I don't know that that makes it any less of a threat but certainly less confrontational.

Originally Posted by ND Sol (Post 16973032)

The crux of the issue in Gilmore was that the TSA would permit him to fly without showing ID, provided he consented to additional screening of his person and property, which was then called "secondary screening". Gilmore did not want to go through that secondary screening. The court said that if a reasonable alternative to not showing ID existed, then the TSA requirement was permissible.

Originally Posted by ND Sol (Post 16973032)

The crux of the issue in Gilmore was that the TSA would permit him to fly without showing ID, provided he consented to additional screening of his person and property, which was then called "secondary screening". Gilmore did not want to go through that secondary screening. The court said that if a reasonable alternative to not showing ID existed, then the TSA requirement was permissible.

Two items that are not addressed given today's TSA environment are (1) whether the WBI meets the tests for even secondary screening and (2) the TSA requirement that you will not be permitted to enter the sterile area if you have an ID on your person, but refuse to show it.

Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 16973604)

The main items (this thread) are the justification for and consequences of not
a) pronouncing your name
b) answering damnfool (sorry, immaterial) questions.

Originally Posted by PTravel (Post 16970692)

The nice thing about being a lawyer is that it costs me relatively little out-of-pocket to sue. I'm just waiting for the right set of facts.

Originally Posted by Always Flyin (Post 16979157)

Let me know when that happens. I'll donate some pro bono time.

Originally Posted by N965VJ (Post 16955280)

What to do with the TSA short term-


1. Stop the use and deployment of body scanning machines. They don't see into body cavities, under folds of flesh, or detect explosives. They are an intrusion into privacy and needlessly add to cumulative lifetime radiation doses, and there are no peer-reviewed studies that back up the government's claim they are safe.

Properly procured and administrated use of Explosive Trace Detection Portals (puffers) addresses the technical shortcomings of the body scanners, while at the same time are non-intrusive and pose no health risks. It’s unfortunate that the Chertoff Group and other lobbyists that profit from the deployment of body scanners have no interest in ETP technology that is being used in venues as varied as nuclear installations and the CN Tower in Toronto.

ETP, coupled with Walk Through Metal Detectors and x-ray of bags, is real security at the checkpoint, without the need for genital gropes.

2. Full accountability of TSA employees. A Citizen Review Board should be established to investigate allegations of screener abuse. Initiate a focus on customer service training for screeners, instead of barking and asking “Do you want to fly today?”


3. End the War on Liquids. The exemptions make it pointless, and even if there was such a Magic Liquid™ that could be used to create a bomb airside without laboratory conditions if you just had enough of it, just send ten guys through the checkpoint with their Kippie Bags and combine it airside.


4. End the removal of shoes. The X-Ray machine cannot detect explosives, period.


5. Eliminate the gate screenings. The fact that this is being done in MCI, where each gate area pretty much has its own checkpoint to start with, is proof that this is nothing more than security theatre and workfare.


4. The wearing of metal “police” badges is stopped immediately, and replaced with the screener’s name and identification number that is plainly visible. Phase out the “police” uniform and replace it with something that reflects the fact that screeners have no law enforcement powers. Eliminate the TSA Honor Guard as there is no need for screeners to dress up in costumes and parade around. Stop trying to cash in on the respect that people that serve in the military have earned.


5. Get rid of the No Fly List. There’s no effective means of redress or oversight how the list is managed. If the people on these lists are so dangerous, arrest them.


6. Stop trying to encroach on privately owned aircraft and kill LASP dead in its tracks. The Inspector General has determined that private aircraft are not a threat. Personal Liberties — For the first time, the TSA’s regulatory activities would be extended to personal GA aircraft, historic and vintage aircraft, and operators, passengers, and pilots flying for personal and business use. As such, the LASP is a radical departure from anything the TSA has enacted to date. It would, in effect, require governmental review and authority before you could operate your own personal vehicle.


7. Stop the ID checks. The TSA has no need to know who I am or where I’m flying. This is nothing more than revenue protection on behalf of the airlines. The thought that I must “present my papers” to travel within the border of my own country is disgusting. Stop using the checkpoint as a dragnet. College kids with fake IDs, illegal aliens, or some common criminal wanted on a drug charge somewhere are not a threat to commercial aviation. We have other government agencies tasked for this.


8. End the mission creep. No more TSA appearances at sporting events, bus and train stations, or highways. Let the real law enforcement professionals tasked with these venues handle things without interference from the TSA. Why is the TSA showing up at thousands of non-airport venues every year when the own Red Team test score failures are "off the charts" according to Rep. Mica?


9. The junk science SPOT program gets the boot.


10. Stop any consideration of having screeners armed with firearms, or having any law enforcement powers. We hear of continuous cases where airport LEOs are the last line of defense against abuse by TSA screeners.



What to do with the TSA long term-

The TSA should become a part of the DOT. Actual screening should be done by private contractors with oversight by the FAA. Funny how we never heard the constant stories of mistreatment and harassment of PAX, organized rings of theft and general thuggery when this was being done by private sector firms.

Originally Posted by battensea (Post 17088486)

Plenty of excellent suggestions there. But you lost me when you called for privatization of the screening service.

Originally Posted by Ari (Post 16947088)

They'll just resort to hunting Mexicans again.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-06-14/t...t?_s=PM:TRAVEL

Originally Posted by jkhuggins (Post 17088510)

Originally Posted by battensea (Post 17088575)

Yeah, privatization of military duties has worked smashingly well on all those points in Iraq. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by LeslieJam

I'm not a fan of TSA, but if it keeps us safe, it is worth it, and if modeled after El Al hard to argue their success in passenger safety.

Originally Posted by 14940674 (Post 16954927)

"At Logan, about 70 agents — all with college degrees — are undergoing training by an international consulting firm that includes a four-day classroom course and 24 hours of on-the-job experience, said TSA spokeswoman Ann Davis."

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/reg...icleid=1355725

Originally Posted by 14940674 (Post 16955931)

It might work, but that would provide a smaller sample size than a selection of 3 or 4 questions. Also the questions carry an element of surprise which is lost when you state a prepared response.

Originally Posted by battensea (Post 17088626)

Getting back to the issue of the slippery slope to racial profiling that this BDO program is on ...

Unfortunately, there are all too many voices, even among members of Congress, overtly calling for routine use by the TSA of profiling based on race, ethnicity, and religion.

Throw in a measly 4 - 5 days of training and pressure to meet implicit quotas into that mix and there's no way that this program can not lead to abuses of civil liberties.