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Originally Posted by Wally Bird
(Post 16970660)
True, but you likely don't get to fly.
If I had the money (I certainly have both the time and the inclination), I'd be willing to challenge the TSA in court. I have no doubt I would lose though or at the very least the TSA would make the case 'go away'. The TSA runs roughshod over the law and the Constitution with the acquiescence of the courts and the majority of the population; until one or both of those attitudes change that will continue. |
Originally Posted by Wally Bird
(Post 16970496)
What's not clear ? We're saying the same thing - TSA requiring pronunciation of names is not a stated legal requirement of 49 CFR 1540.107.
BUTSo if the sterile area to which passengers are admitted qualifies (and I don't see how it wouldn't), and verbal confirmation of name is defined somewhere as one of the 'systems, measures or procedures' then it does have a basis in law of some kind. A very vague administrative law; which is exactly how the TSA likes it. For matters relating to the screening for WEI (weapons, explosives and incendiaries), there is an applicable CFR. For showing the TDC your ID, not really. Here is my exchange with Francine the TSA Chief Counsel about this (and the reason she is now Francine the Googling attorney): Francine said: “As Chief Counsel, I firmly believe that TSA's ID requirements are warranted from a security perspective and entirely legal. Under a TSA regulatory provision, 49 C.F.R. § 1540.105(a)(2), a person may not enter the sterile area “without complying with the systems, measures, or procedures” applied to control access to the restricted area in question. Verifying the identity of passengers who access the sterile area falls within this rubric and is, in fact, part of TSA’s screening process. It is true that an earlier regulatory provision, 49 C.F.R. § 1540.5, which sets forth definitions, states that access to the sterile area is “generally” controlled through the “screening” of persons and property and that “screening function means the inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries.” The definition of “screening function,” which focuses on physical inspection—the most intrusive form of screening—cannot be read to limit the Administrator’s broad expanse of authority under the operative language of section 1540.105(a)(2) to establish “systems, measures or procedures” governing sterile area access, including an ID screening process. Certainly, the common definition of screening encompasses methods other than physical intrusion. One definition of screening listed by Google reads as follows: “Is the person on a watch-list? Biometric information can be used to determine if a person is cleared to be in a restricted area, or if the person is on a watch list (eg the FBI Most Wanted list).” Similarly, under section 1602(a)(5) of the 9/11 Implementation Act, H.R. 1, the definition of cargo “screening” includes methods other than physical inspection. Given the Administrator’s fundamental statutory responsibility pursuant to 49 U.S.C. § 44901 to secure the aviation transportation system, a unduly narrow construction of § 1540.105(a)(5) cannot be justified.” My response: A basic rule of construction concerning the interpretation of CFR’s is breached in your analysis. CFR’s are to be interpreted in the strictest sense especially when the regulation involves restrictions on individuals and their actions. The agency that promulgates the regulation also is the drafter. As such, if the agency wanted to make the rule broader, it should have drafted it as such. 49 C.F.R. §1540.105(a)(2) addresses not only the “sterile area” as related to systems, measures and procedures. It also includes secured areas, AOA’s and SIDA’s. For that reason, the other “systems, measures, or procedures being applied to control access to, or presence or movement in, such areas” are dependent on the particular area at issue. So, for example, in the case of SIDA’s an acceptable system would be the checking of ID’s. On the other hand the definition of sterile area sets forth the specifics for those systems, measures and procedures, which is the screening of persons and property. How is that screening accomplished – through the screening function, which is defined as “inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries.” Until the CFR is amended, that is your limit for the sterile area. You also conveniently left out two words (among others) when you state “that access to the sterile area is ‘generally’ controlled through the ‘screening’ of persons and property.” After the word “controlled”, the words “by TSA” were not included. As such, you give the impression that the word “generally” refers to the screening process when in fact the reference is to the TSA. That is not only disingenuous, but wrong. Boundaries are set for screening of persons and property. We also don’t have a reason to go to Google for definitions of “screening.” It is contained in the CFR itself. If that definition is too restrictive, you just can’t conveniently ignore it; you need to go through the process of amending the regulation. In that manner the Google definition can then be included if you feel it is appropriate to accomplishing the TSA mission. Are you not amenable to that? I had a very seasoned attorney once tell me that if he was given the opportunity to draft a document, as long as he was able to have free reign over the definitions section, then he would let the other side’s attorneys draft the rest of the document. Definitions are a critical and integral part of a legal instrument. So let's examine 1540.107 and see if any of its three requirements authorize the TSA to require ID at the screening checkpoint: 1. 1540.107(a) requires that no individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property. So what does that entail? Section 1540.5 defines "screening function" as "the inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries." No TDC ID requirements here. 2. 1540.107(b) requires providing one's full name, as defined in § 1560.3 of this chapter, date of birth, and gender when the individual makes (x) a reservation for a covered flight, as defined in § 1560.3, or (y) a request for authorization to enter a sterile area. This requirement is to provide the information to the "covered operator" (i.e. the airline) and not directly to the TSA. No TDC ID requirements here. 3. 1540.107(c) requires that no individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft if the individual does not present a verifying identity document as defined in § 1560.3, when requested for purposes of watch list matching under § 1560.105(c). The requirement for presenting ID is for "purposes of watch list matching under §1560.105" does not occur at the screening checkpoint. If someone believes that it does, then what list is the TDC matching your ID against? This would be the airline requesting your info. One needs to read 1560.105 to understand what the requirements really are as related to 1540.107(b) & (c) since they were added in conjunction with 1560: (a) Applicability . (1) This section applies to each covered aircraft operator beginning on the date that TSA assumes the watch list matching function for the passengers and non-traveling individuals to whom that covered aircraft operator issues a boarding pass or other authorization to enter a sterile area. (c) Request for identification —(1) In general . If TSA has not informed the covered aircraft operator of the results of watch list matching for an individual by the time the individual attempts to check in, or informs the covered aircraft operator that an individual has been placed in inhibited status, the aircraft operator must request from the individual a verifying identity document pursuant to procedures in its security program., as provided in 49 CFR part 1544, subpart B or 49 CFR part 1546, subpart B. The individual must present a verifying identity document to the covered aircraft operator at the airport. (d) Failure to obtain identification . If a passenger or non-traveling individual does not present a verifying identity document when requested by the covered aircraft operator, in order to comply with paragraph (c) of this section, the covered aircraft operator must not issue a boarding pass or give authorization to enter a sterile area to that individual and must not allow that individual to board an aircraft or enter a sterile area, unless otherwise authorized by TSA. The authority to require ID's at the checkpoints is not in the CFR's no matter what Francine the Googling Lawyer would try to make one believe. I think that there is a reason why the TSA is not involved in this process directly with the passenger. |
Originally Posted by ND Sol
(Post 16971132)
We are saying the same thing about TSA requiring pronunciation of names, but even the requirement for passengers to present ID to the TDC (much less the TSA) is not contained in the CFR's. The requirement is to the airlines.
For matters relating to the screening for WEI (weapons, explosives and incendiaries), there is an applicable CFR. For showing the TDC your ID, not really. Here is my exchange with Francine the TSA Chief Counsel about this (and the reason she is now Francine the Googling attorney): Francine said: “As Chief Counsel, I firmly believe that TSA's ID requirements are warranted from a security perspective and entirely legal. Under a TSA regulatory provision, 49 C.F.R. § 1540.105(a)(2), a person may not enter the sterile area “without complying with the systems, measures, or procedures” applied to control access to the restricted area in question. Verifying the identity of passengers who access the sterile area falls within this rubric and is, in fact, part of TSA’s screening process. It is true that an earlier regulatory provision, 49 C.F.R. § 1540.5, which sets forth definitions, states that access to the sterile area is “generally” controlled through the “screening” of persons and property and that “screening function means the inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries.” The definition of “screening function,” which focuses on physical inspection—the most intrusive form of screening—cannot be read to limit the Administrator’s broad expanse of authority under the operative language of section 1540.105(a)(2) to establish “systems, measures or procedures” governing sterile area access, including an ID screening process. Certainly, the common definition of screening encompasses methods other than physical intrusion. One definition of screening listed by Google reads as follows: “Is the person on a watch-list? Biometric information can be used to determine if a person is cleared to be in a restricted area, or if the person is on a watch list (eg the FBI Most Wanted list).” Similarly, under section 1602(a)(5) of the 9/11 Implementation Act, H.R. 1, the definition of cargo “screening” includes methods other than physical inspection. Given the Administrator’s fundamental statutory responsibility pursuant to 49 U.S.C. § 44901 to secure the aviation transportation system, a unduly narrow construction of § 1540.105(a)(5) cannot be justified.” My response: A basic rule of construction concerning the interpretation of CFR’s is breached in your analysis. CFR’s are to be interpreted in the strictest sense especially when the regulation involves restrictions on individuals and their actions. The agency that promulgates the regulation also is the drafter. As such, if the agency wanted to make the rule broader, it should have drafted it as such. 49 C.F.R. §1540.105(a)(2) addresses not only the “sterile area” as related to systems, measures and procedures. It also includes secured areas, AOA’s and SIDA’s. For that reason, the other “systems, measures, or procedures being applied to control access to, or presence or movement in, such areas” are dependent on the particular area at issue. So, for example, in the case of SIDA’s an acceptable system would be the checking of ID’s. On the other hand the definition of sterile area sets forth the specifics for those systems, measures and procedures, which is the screening of persons and property. How is that screening accomplished – through the screening function, which is defined as “inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries.” Until the CFR is amended, that is your limit for the sterile area. You also conveniently left out two words (among others) when you state “that access to the sterile area is ‘generally’ controlled through the ‘screening’ of persons and property.” After the word “controlled”, the words “by TSA” were not included. As such, you give the impression that the word “generally” refers to the screening process when in fact the reference is to the TSA. That is not only disingenuous, but wrong. Boundaries are set for screening of persons and property. We also don’t have a reason to go to Google for definitions of “screening.” It is contained in the CFR itself. If that definition is too restrictive, you just can’t conveniently ignore it; you need to go through the process of amending the regulation. In that manner the Google definition can then be included if you feel it is appropriate to accomplishing the TSA mission. Are you not amenable to that? I had a very seasoned attorney once tell me that if he was given the opportunity to draft a document, as long as he was able to have free reign over the definitions section, then he would let the other side’s attorneys draft the rest of the document. Definitions are a critical and integral part of a legal instrument. So let's examine 1540.107 and see if any of its three requirements authorize the TSA to require ID at the screening checkpoint: 1. 1540.107(a) requires that no individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property. So what does that entail? Section 1540.5 defines "screening function" as "the inspection of individuals and property for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries." No TDC ID requirements here. 2. 1540.107(b) requires providing one's full name, as defined in § 1560.3 of this chapter, date of birth, and gender when the individual makes (x) a reservation for a covered flight, as defined in § 1560.3, or (y) a request for authorization to enter a sterile area. This requirement is to provide the information to the "covered operator" (i.e. the airline) and not directly to the TSA. No TDC ID requirements here. 3. 1540.107(c) requires that no individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft if the individual does not present a verifying identity document as defined in § 1560.3, when requested for purposes of watch list matching under § 1560.105(c). The requirement for presenting ID is for "purposes of watch list matching under §1560.105" does not occur at the screening checkpoint. If someone believes that it does, then what list is the TDC matching your ID against? This would be the airline requesting your info. One needs to read 1560.105 to understand what the requirements really are as related to 1540.107(b) & (c) since they were added in conjunction with 1560: So, this only has direct application to the airlines. It is the airline that has to ask for the ID, and only under specified circumstances. Once again, its is the airline's responsibility and only under certain circumstances. The authority to require ID's at the checkpoints is not in the CFR's no matter what Francine the Googling Lawyer would try to make one believe. I think that there is a reason why the TSA is not involved in this process directly with the passenger. |
Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 16971235)
Great post, NDSol. I would love to see someone challenge TSA in court on this basis, as this is a straight-forward statutory construction question and doesn't even implicate the constitutional concerns (other than void-for-vagueness).
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Originally Posted by PTravel
(Post 16970692)
The nice thing about being a lawyer is that it costs me relatively little out-of-pocket to sue. I'm just waiting for the right set of facts.
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Originally Posted by JumboD
(Post 16971959)
I agree, however I am curious when these regulations were written. It used to be that one checked in at the airline's desk with a live person to receive boarding documents, hence the ID check. However, with more widespread use of kiosks and OLCI, that's gone away. Perhaps this was designed as a way to meet the requirements set forth in the regulations but also not repeal these forms of check-in?
The task for TSA as related to passengers is to screen them for WEI and keep prohibited items from entering the sterile area, which is what the CFR's state. No need for ID and questioning to do such. |
Originally Posted by ND Sol
(Post 16972305)
The Secure Flight regulations are not that old and those are the ones that require airlines to capture a passenger's name, DOB and gender and send it on to ensure that name is not on the watch or no-fly list.
The task for TSA as related to passengers is to screen them for WEI and keep prohibited items from entering the sterile area, which is what the CFR's state. No need for ID and questioning to do such. Agree about the DOB, gender and questioning. |
Originally Posted by JumboD
(Post 16972439)
I was referring to the checking of IDs to match BP to traveler (which the airline used to do) and the fact that with OLCI/kiosk the airlines can't do that anymore. We've had to show ID at check-in for well over a decade.
Agree about the DOB, gender and questioning. |
I have to disagree with your interpretation of 49 C.F.R. §1540.105(a)(2)
my qualms being in that it was not as strictly constructed as you seem to believe, as it did not limit the control of access to "screening" (limited to searching for WEI) exclusively... Also 1540.107(c) would seem to be an enforcing clause to the requirements set forth in § 1560.105 yes, the operator does the watchlist matching, but the subsequent application of security procedures is contingent on the results of said matching; the transmission of this information being primarily in the form of boarding passes. So I guess they're counting reading the output as an extension of the matching process.. just a few thoughts... but then again, I'm barred having those by my management and the public... maybe if you could find a way to get TSA to follow the rule of law in really ANY case, all of us would be better off. |
So, if I were to quote 49 C.F.R. §1540.107(b) when SPOTted, and just give my Name, rank, and serial number, so to speak, am I breaking the law? Will I get the dreaded "Do you want to fly today" question, etc etc etc?
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Originally Posted by JumboD
(Post 16971959)
I agree, however I am curious when these regulations were written.
Originally Posted by mikemey
(Post 16972603)
So, if I were to quote 49 C.F.R. §1540.107(b) when SPOTted, and just give my Name, rank, and serial number, so to speak, am I breaking the law? Will I get the dreaded "Do you want to fly today" question, etc etc etc?
Originally Posted by PTravel
Great post, NDSol. I would love to see someone challenge TSA in court on this basis, as this is a straight-forward statutory construction question and doesn't even implicate the constitutional concerns (other than void-for-vagueness).
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Originally Posted by Wally Bird
(Post 16972770)
Would not the court simply point to Gilmore ? Assuming the additional procedures in lieu of ID is still an option that is.
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Originally Posted by Chaos.Defined
(Post 16972599)
I have to disagree with your interpretation of 49 C.F.R. §1540.105(a)(2)
my qualms being in that it was not as strictly constructed as you seem to believe, as it did not limit the control of access to "screening" (limited to searching for WEI) exclusively... A basic rule of construction is that CFR’s are to be interpreted in the strictest sense especially when the regulation involves restrictions on individuals and their actions. The agency that promulgates the regulation also is the drafter. As such, if the agency wanted to make the rule broader, it should have drafted it as such.
Originally Posted by Chaos.Defined
(Post 16972599)
Also 1540.107(c) would seem to be an enforcing clause to the requirements set forth in § 1560.105
yes, the operator does the watchlist matching, but the subsequent application of security procedures is contingent on the results of said matching; the transmission of this information being primarily in the form of boarding passes. So I guess they're counting reading the output as an extension of the matching process.. |
Originally Posted by Wally Bird
(Post 16972770)
The whole of 49 CFR 1540 dates from February 2002 (67 FR 8353). Section 105 has not been changed since but 107 was modified October 2008 (73 FR 64061). I wonder what it used to say.
Originally Posted by Wally Bird
(Post 16972770)
Would not the court simply point to Gilmore ? Assuming the additional procedures in lieu of ID is still an option that is.
Two items that are not addressed given today's TSA environment are (1) whether the WBI meets the tests for even secondary screening and (2) the TSA requirement that you will not be permitted to enter the sterile area if you have an ID on your person, but refuse to show it. |
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