How to respond to the TSA?
Oct 14, 2010, 5:07 am
#31
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 555
I "shouldn't be traveling this much"? What do you propose? Once a year is enough? Twice? Want to have a chat with my employers about this plan? Should I just quit my work and stay at home knitting? Is travel for pleasure out too, since the TSA has a "policy" which we're "not debating"?
-I- choose what calculated risks I take to continue living -my- life the way I please. Yes, I understand that nothing is risk free, and I understand that going to the grocery store could lead to the exposure that kills me. I -balance- that risk with vigilance and protective measures. I wear a mask and I don't touch my face and I clean my hands so often they'd probably fall off if I didn't use lotion and I check my temperature multiple times a day and my doctor and I spend more time with eachother than I do with most my friends. I'm doing my part in keeping myself safe and how dare some idiot with a highschool diploma and a uniform tell me that I don't get to fly unless they make my choices for me?
And not lifting my mask for a second is not an "indication" of how strong my immune system is or isn't. It takes considerably less than a second to be exposed to all the junk that's in your airspace, and it's much more likely to get shoved in your direction if two TSA "agents" who have encountered 1000 passengers that day are breathing all over you. Once you -put the mask back on-, you're still susceptible to whatever may have landed -inside- it during that process... you have to breathe in eventually.
I love flying. I love flying and I love being healthy enough to travel and I love that I have the money and means to do it right now in my life. And you're telling me I should give that up because that's the policy and we're not debating it?
To everyone who has provided suggestions, thank you. To this commenter, I sincerely hope that you never become disabled, since it seems pretty clear you'd be content to sit on a rocking chair and knit for the rest of your life while accepting SS checks. Great for you, but that's not the life I choose to live, and how I take care of -my- health is between me and my doctors, not between me and the TSA.
-I- choose what calculated risks I take to continue living -my- life the way I please. Yes, I understand that nothing is risk free, and I understand that going to the grocery store could lead to the exposure that kills me. I -balance- that risk with vigilance and protective measures. I wear a mask and I don't touch my face and I clean my hands so often they'd probably fall off if I didn't use lotion and I check my temperature multiple times a day and my doctor and I spend more time with eachother than I do with most my friends. I'm doing my part in keeping myself safe and how dare some idiot with a highschool diploma and a uniform tell me that I don't get to fly unless they make my choices for me?
And not lifting my mask for a second is not an "indication" of how strong my immune system is or isn't. It takes considerably less than a second to be exposed to all the junk that's in your airspace, and it's much more likely to get shoved in your direction if two TSA "agents" who have encountered 1000 passengers that day are breathing all over you. Once you -put the mask back on-, you're still susceptible to whatever may have landed -inside- it during that process... you have to breathe in eventually.
I love flying. I love flying and I love being healthy enough to travel and I love that I have the money and means to do it right now in my life. And you're telling me I should give that up because that's the policy and we're not debating it?
To everyone who has provided suggestions, thank you. To this commenter, I sincerely hope that you never become disabled, since it seems pretty clear you'd be content to sit on a rocking chair and knit for the rest of your life while accepting SS checks. Great for you, but that's not the life I choose to live, and how I take care of -my- health is between me and my doctors, not between me and the TSA.
I'm so sorry you had to go through this, and hope you pursue it.
Welcome to Flyer Talk.
~~ Irish
Oct 14, 2010, 2:10 pm
#32
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- I never said I agree with what the TSA is doing or did in this case, or with the law requiring ID checks. I did not say that I think this will help catch terrorists.
- I did say that I think it is reasonable for the TSA, given that they are mandated by law to check your identity, to request you remove your face mask.
- I don't care what you do to protest this law. Fill out comment cards, write letters, file lawsuits - it's not my business. But those things will help more than your actions at the airport and subsequent complaining.
- Your attitude with the TSA does not help the situation. If I had to deal with people who do their best to interfere with my job every day, I'd probably end up doing the same crazy things as the TSA does now.
- I don't care how often you fly or what you do to protect yourself. That's up to you. But you shouldn't have any special privileges and if we all have to have our ID verified, then your "disability" should not be a reason why your ID cannot be fully verified.
- Lastly, I respect your opinion. If you can't respect mine, then there is no reason for this conversation.
Oct 14, 2010, 2:41 pm
#33
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- I never said I agree with what the TSA is doing or did in this case, or with the law requiring ID checks. I did not say that I think this will help catch terrorists.
- I did say that I think it is reasonable for the TSA, given that they are mandated by law to check your identity, to request you remove your face mask.
- I don't care what you do to protest this law. Fill out comment cards, write letters, file lawsuits - it's not my business. But those things will help more than your actions at the airport and subsequent complaining.
- Your attitude with the TSA does not help the situation. If I had to deal with people who do their best to interfere with my job every day, I'd probably end up doing the same crazy things as the TSA does now.
- I don't care how often you fly or what you do to protect yourself. That's up to you. But you shouldn't have any special privileges and if we all have to have our ID verified, then your "disability" should not be a reason why your ID cannot be fully verified.
- Lastly, I respect your opinion. If you can't respect mine, then there is no reason for this conversation.
Oct 14, 2010, 3:50 pm
#34
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^
Oct 14, 2010, 4:12 pm
#35
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Agreed. But look at it from the point of view of a TSA screener (I doubt most are malicious on purpose, at least at first). I assume their thought process went something like this:
1. This person is wearing a mask covering 50% of their face. I can't identify them with the mask and need to have her remove the mask.
2. This person doesn't want to remove their mask. They must be hiding something.
3. Since we need to manually process this person, we'll take them through the WTMD right away and then process the person.
4. The person keeps refusing to remove the mask. What are they hiding?
True, but sadly I doubt anyone who can do anything goes by the # of google results.
Agreed, and this is something they have to address. A reasonable course of action would have been for the OP to immediately state that she has to wear the mask for medical reasons and cannot remove it in a public area, but would be willing to do so in a private area if the screeners wore masks, instead of simply stating that she "could not do that".
I don't know how common such conditions are, but I think it is also reasoanble for the TSA to have some masks, and this was a mistake on their part. On the other hand, I'd also like to point out that I would never use a mask, sterile packaging or not, from a stranger. I'm sure it's trivial to repackage a mask in a sterile looking bag, except laced with some chemical or something else. That would definitely create some amount of terror.
In short, the TSA made some obvious mistakes, but the OP probably sounded belligerent to them, and that made the situation worse. After all, the TSA is supposedly responsible for security, and I would not want to be the ID checker who missed a terrorist because they had a mask on.
1. This person is wearing a mask covering 50% of their face. I can't identify them with the mask and need to have her remove the mask.
2. This person doesn't want to remove their mask. They must be hiding something.
3. Since we need to manually process this person, we'll take them through the WTMD right away and then process the person.
4. The person keeps refusing to remove the mask. What are they hiding?
By posting here, the TSA's mistreatment is shown to the Google bots. ^
^
Having to deal with special needs folks is a cornerstone of customer service, but the TSA fails miserably in this many times.
I don't know how common such conditions are, but I think it is also reasoanble for the TSA to have some masks, and this was a mistake on their part. On the other hand, I'd also like to point out that I would never use a mask, sterile packaging or not, from a stranger. I'm sure it's trivial to repackage a mask in a sterile looking bag, except laced with some chemical or something else. That would definitely create some amount of terror.
In short, the TSA made some obvious mistakes, but the OP probably sounded belligerent to them, and that made the situation worse. After all, the TSA is supposedly responsible for security, and I would not want to be the ID checker who missed a terrorist because they had a mask on.
Oct 14, 2010, 4:20 pm
#36
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A reasonable course of action would have been for the OP to immediately state that she has to wear the mask for medical reasons and cannot remove it in a public area, but would be willing to do so in a private area if the screeners wore masks, instead of simply stating that she "could not do that".
I told the TSA employees that I would accept their (unreasonable, although I did not say this) demand to see my entire face IF the screeners saw me in a private room, and masked up beforehand. I offered my sealed, individually bagged, sterile masks because they insisted they "didn't have any." I repeatedly explained that because I am immuno-compromised, I cannot in fact risk even "a quick second" of exposure, which they repeatedly kept quoting because viruses apparently don't do anything in a second or two...
Oct 14, 2010, 4:49 pm
#37
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...I was at the TSA stand getting my ID checked within 10-15 minutes.
The TSA employee stated I needed to remove my (n95 medical) mask while standing around the other passengers in order to "confirm my identity" (I clearly stole the ID of someone with exactly all my other features, but I'm hiding a different mouth under the mask...) At this point, she put the dreaded "SSSS" on my ticket even before I could respond.
When I stated that I could not do that, the employee said she would have to call her supervisor, who naturally took his time and then some to arrive. Upon arrival, he told me that they'd "have to see my face" and dragged me in front of other passengers to the front of a screening queue to put my bag through the xray. he then picked up my belongings on the other end and walked off with them. Apparently, TS"O"s don't have to worry about waiting in line like everyone else, because they're special and all the people behind us had absolutely nowhere to go anyways. I felt pretty freakin' rude line jumping.
The employees then proceeded to fight over if they'd take me to "see my face" first or search through my bag. they decided upon patting me down and then searching my bag first.
This was the most zealous bag search I've ever seen. They opened my (locked, and cleared by xray) file box and swabbed my -paper files-, along with my clothing, my medication, my phone, my two laptops, and my cane. I'm pretty surprised my cane didn't set something off because it touches EVERYTHING on the floor, and they swabbed the bottom of it!
They then proceeded to get into a fight with eachother over if they should give me my shoes back. Finally, they decided it'd be alright. When I tried to point out something they were looking for in my bag, the less sympathetic screener barked at me to not touch my bag.
I told the TSA employees that I would accept their (unreasonable, although I did not say this) demand to see my entire face IF the screeners saw me in a private room, and masked up beforehand. I offered my sealed, individually bagged, sterile masks because they insisted they "didn't have any." I repeatedly explained that because I am immuno-compromised, I cannot in fact risk even "a quick second" of exposure, which they repeatedly kept quoting because viruses apparently don't do anything in a second or two...
The TSA employee stated I needed to remove my (n95 medical) mask while standing around the other passengers in order to "confirm my identity" (I clearly stole the ID of someone with exactly all my other features, but I'm hiding a different mouth under the mask...) At this point, she put the dreaded "SSSS" on my ticket even before I could respond.
When I stated that I could not do that, the employee said she would have to call her supervisor, who naturally took his time and then some to arrive. Upon arrival, he told me that they'd "have to see my face" and dragged me in front of other passengers to the front of a screening queue to put my bag through the xray. he then picked up my belongings on the other end and walked off with them. Apparently, TS"O"s don't have to worry about waiting in line like everyone else, because they're special and all the people behind us had absolutely nowhere to go anyways. I felt pretty freakin' rude line jumping.
The employees then proceeded to fight over if they'd take me to "see my face" first or search through my bag. they decided upon patting me down and then searching my bag first.
This was the most zealous bag search I've ever seen. They opened my (locked, and cleared by xray) file box and swabbed my -paper files-, along with my clothing, my medication, my phone, my two laptops, and my cane. I'm pretty surprised my cane didn't set something off because it touches EVERYTHING on the floor, and they swabbed the bottom of it!
They then proceeded to get into a fight with eachother over if they should give me my shoes back. Finally, they decided it'd be alright. When I tried to point out something they were looking for in my bag, the less sympathetic screener barked at me to not touch my bag.
I told the TSA employees that I would accept their (unreasonable, although I did not say this) demand to see my entire face IF the screeners saw me in a private room, and masked up beforehand. I offered my sealed, individually bagged, sterile masks because they insisted they "didn't have any." I repeatedly explained that because I am immuno-compromised, I cannot in fact risk even "a quick second" of exposure, which they repeatedly kept quoting because viruses apparently don't do anything in a second or two...
No excuse for rude TSA behaviour, but the OP handled this situation extremely badly. Apparently they fly regularly - surely this is an issue that arises every single time? I've seen plenty of these masks - if a TSO is told to sit at a desk and match IDs to people that arrive at the checkpoint, there is no way they can do that with even a minute level of certainty if they are wearing one of these masks. I love the previous comments from other posters who immediately hit the "ID doesn't mean security! Never prevented any terrorists" macro button on their computers - what a load of nonsense. The fact is (like it or not) that the screeners are told to check IDs - if they can't do it because the OP's face was clearly obscured, that is the OP's problem.
All this talk about illnesses and circumstances and everything else is quite frankly, irrelevant to the situation at hand.
The very same would apply to a woman wearing a veil covering her face - I'm sure the regulars here would expect her to remove it, right?
Oct 14, 2010, 4:49 pm
#38
Join Date: May 2007
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Originally Posted by Nahrain
When I stated that I could not do that, the employee said she would have to call her supervisor
Oct 14, 2010, 5:06 pm
#40
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If my intent were to cause harm to a large group of people, why on earth would I take my intended victims to an isolated room wherein I could only possibly expose two people? It would have made much more sense to keep a low profile, get through security, and then go through with my plan, correct? Or, heck, why not stuff whatever I was hoping to expose the workers to in my bag, or in my file box, or in my belongings which I knew they would search in a public area while -not- masked and protected? Airports don't seem the sort of destination one goes to when intending to commit a minimal-harm crime...
They were in the manufacturer's sealed pouches. Since the staff did not have their own, this was the very best I could offer them. I don't come with a built in "magically appearing objects" feature.
A muslim woman wearing a niqab is under no religious prohibition to remove her veil in front of other women, thus making the comparison moot. and really, are you comparing people whining over orders that a man in the sky gave them, to someone's medical needs?
If "the requirements" became having fingerprinting done when passing through the airport, would it be "the traveler's problem" if he lacked hands? Identification "requirements" should not get in the way of paying customers who are NOT a threat as determined by WTMD, xray, and additional screening, from getting on their flight.
They were in the manufacturer's sealed pouches. Since the staff did not have their own, this was the very best I could offer them. I don't come with a built in "magically appearing objects" feature.
A muslim woman wearing a niqab is under no religious prohibition to remove her veil in front of other women, thus making the comparison moot. and really, are you comparing people whining over orders that a man in the sky gave them, to someone's medical needs?
If "the requirements" became having fingerprinting done when passing through the airport, would it be "the traveler's problem" if he lacked hands? Identification "requirements" should not get in the way of paying customers who are NOT a threat as determined by WTMD, xray, and additional screening, from getting on their flight.
Talking about fingerprints or lack of hands is also irrelevant because - those rules do not exist in this situation. It's completely hypothetical, whereas I can assure you there is a TSO sitting at a checkpoint in your local US airport right now who has been told to check each and every person for ID. What do you propose they do?
It sounds harsh to say it but it's true - it's your problem.
Oct 14, 2010, 5:21 pm
#42
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I'm fortunate to live in a country where discrimination isn't just my problem, it's a violation of the law. In all my (many) other flying experiences, the conclusion has been come to that one can reliably identify me because 1: you can see half my face 2: you can see my height and weight, and that's plenty good enough.
Hypothetical situations are relevant, because they illustrate the idiocy of "well, that's what we've been told, so grow some hands" type of commands. I can't grow a healthy immune system any more than an amputee can grow limbs.
Hypothetical situations are relevant, because they illustrate the idiocy of "well, that's what we've been told, so grow some hands" type of commands. I can't grow a healthy immune system any more than an amputee can grow limbs.
Oct 14, 2010, 5:31 pm
#43
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You know, "Some airports do. Some airports don't. Each airport is different." as one screener famously said in this forum in response to the TSA's wild unpredictability.
Oct 14, 2010, 5:38 pm
#44
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,195
Does anyone else smell a decaying fish in the OP’s story? Somehow I doubt it.
Sometime back I had occasion to contact a major manufacturer of N95 masks and found that the expectations of such a mask is … less than acceptable for the OP’s needs. From the OSHA web site: “This respirator can help reduce inhalation exposures to certain airborne biological particles (e.g. viruses,
mold, Bacillus anthracis, Mycobacterium tuberculosis, etc.) but cannot eliminate the risk of contracting infection, illness or disease. OSHA and other government agencies have not established safe exposure limits for these contaminants.”
N95 masks are designed to capture 95% of the normal particulate matter that the average human breathes, but there are better options. They are not designed to prevent the introduction of airborne bacteria or virus’ into a person’s respiratory system. Several manufacturers make respirators with a higher level of filtration, and if the OP has concerns in this area these better respirators would have been provided.
Also, the OP stated: “I repeatedly explained that because I am immuno-compromised, I cannot in fact risk even "a quick second" of exposure, which they repeatedly kept quoting because viruses apparently don't do anything in a second or two...”. Quite obviously this is not an accurate statement. The masks prevent the user from inhaling a significant portion of the particulate matter, 95% of it to be precise. Holding ones breath prevents the user from inhaling 100% of the particulate matter. A “quick second of exposure” would have made absolutely no difference. Common sense should tell everyone that, but again I doubt it will.
I notice that the regulars here jump right on the wagon and take the ride, without even thinking because the story “jives” with their personal perceptions of the TSA and its actions. Try taking the rhetoric out of the OP’s post then re-reading it. TSA’s actions were not inappropriate in any way given what they were facing. But I suspect that the vast majority of the regulars won’t do that, after all why ruin a good story with a few facts, right?
Sometime back I had occasion to contact a major manufacturer of N95 masks and found that the expectations of such a mask is … less than acceptable for the OP’s needs. From the OSHA web site: “This respirator can help reduce inhalation exposures to certain airborne biological particles (e.g. viruses,
mold, Bacillus anthracis, Mycobacterium tuberculosis, etc.) but cannot eliminate the risk of contracting infection, illness or disease. OSHA and other government agencies have not established safe exposure limits for these contaminants.”
N95 masks are designed to capture 95% of the normal particulate matter that the average human breathes, but there are better options. They are not designed to prevent the introduction of airborne bacteria or virus’ into a person’s respiratory system. Several manufacturers make respirators with a higher level of filtration, and if the OP has concerns in this area these better respirators would have been provided.
Also, the OP stated: “I repeatedly explained that because I am immuno-compromised, I cannot in fact risk even "a quick second" of exposure, which they repeatedly kept quoting because viruses apparently don't do anything in a second or two...”. Quite obviously this is not an accurate statement. The masks prevent the user from inhaling a significant portion of the particulate matter, 95% of it to be precise. Holding ones breath prevents the user from inhaling 100% of the particulate matter. A “quick second of exposure” would have made absolutely no difference. Common sense should tell everyone that, but again I doubt it will.
I notice that the regulars here jump right on the wagon and take the ride, without even thinking because the story “jives” with their personal perceptions of the TSA and its actions. Try taking the rhetoric out of the OP’s post then re-reading it. TSA’s actions were not inappropriate in any way given what they were facing. But I suspect that the vast majority of the regulars won’t do that, after all why ruin a good story with a few facts, right?
Oct 14, 2010, 5:46 pm
#45
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I think I may have missed something here. Just how does the knowing the face matches the picture make the plane safer?
The OP was screened adequately and cleared of potential threats yet it was still necessary to match the face and the photo. I do not get it. But then, I am not a security expert.
The OP was screened adequately and cleared of potential threats yet it was still necessary to match the face and the photo. I do not get it. But then, I am not a security expert.