Looking over the shoulder of the TDC by a CBP agent might exceed the scope of the administrative search (although the CFR authority to check ID by even the TSA does not exist). ID is not in plain sight except for the TSA requirement pursuant to an administrative search.

And there are plenty of LEOs that understand that both intimidation is a useful tool and a mere "arrest" is sufficient to cause the victim to be "punished" for the rest of their life. Just look at the number of threads in TS&S asking, essentially, "Can I enter Canada if I've ever been arrested?" Couple that with doing the check at the entrance to an airport - where people are pressed for time - and you've got a perfect situation for effective intimidation.

I am also keenly aware that many LEOs will arrest people on the theory that it will cause the people to have to spend a lot of money on legal counsel even if they're not guilty. Some LEO's consider that as a way to "punish" someone without the need for a trial..... (add in the fact that a CBP LEO understands that a mere arrest makes international travel significanlty harder....)

I totally agree. There are bad apples everywhere in every profession. It can be hard to separate some of them out sometimes, especially if they're effective.

It's sort of where you draw the line. I'd like to assume that everyone agrees that we need police. Generally, police do a good job catching criminals. Some departments are better than others, but as a whole, it's worth keeping. Conversely, I'm assuming most FTers think TSA does a crappy job overall and is better off being scrapped completely, where even if there's no replacement, things wouldn't really be any more dangerous if we went back to pre-9/11 procedures.

So, it's worth trying to fine tune police and weed out the bad apples, whereas the TSA is essentially rotten to the core (just look at how bad their management is) so it's "worth" it to toss the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.

My main point being to be careful not to automatically paint LEO with the same brush we use to paint the TSA. I know not everyone will agree, but I gotta think most people will agree that LEOs are nowhere near as bad as TSA seems to be.

Undoubtedly. I know a few in my profession (engineering and mathematics).

However, when a bad apple gets a gun and a lot of power, we have a much bigger problem.

If I make a mistake, it will most likely be caught in a peer review. No bad consequences, except for some serious embarrassment. Of course, my performance review will also reflect how many mistakes I make, which is good incentive to keep this number down. Same performance review process, hopefully, weeds rotten apples out of the profession.

However, if an LEO makes a mistake (or is a rotten apple), consequences can easily include death of a completely innocent person. Higher standards have to apply.

As a fellow engineer, I completely agree with you on this one! ^

Remember that according to DHS, anywhere within 100 miles of a land or water border is a Constitution-free zone. So I'm not sure it's surprising that they think they can do this.

+sideways-8

Unfortunately, it seems that the courts, the media... and really unfortunately, most of the public, seem to think that law enforcement should be held to a lower, not higher standard. The closed-ranks mindset that causes any punishment to be protested doesn't help.

Agree, but some of it is institutionalized. I remember sitting in a restaurant in Delaware one time and a person at the table next to me had apparently just left the police acadamy. He was telling his date "we just got our guns and badges so now we have the power over the people".....

Maybe he was just bragging to impress his date.

But if was serious, I hope he did not last long.

If he did, I hope I will never have to deal with him.

Sort of confirms my earlier statement that this profession has a tendency to attract power trippers.

I actually agree 100%. That is why the job generally is not easy to obtain and the applicants are heavily scrutinized. LEO's are often held to a higher standard and for the most part should be. Most departments do have peer review as well as management oversight and court reviews. Though, there are other occupations that fit your description as well. Doctors make many decisions on a daily basis that effect peoples lives or deaths but you don’t see to many websites dedicated to telling them how to do there jobs by people who think they know better because they saw the procedure done on tv once or read about it in a book.

LEO's also have additional stressors that the typical employee doesn't have. Recently (today) received reminders about altering routes taken to and from work do to threats of violence from drug cartels. Reminders to update your family members what to do if they are being followed. Imagine for a minute what that means, your spouse, children, brother or sister being at risk and a target of violence merely because of what you do for a living. It does make you pause.

FB

I really can't say that the media has been a friend to Law Enforcement in quite sometime. The public for the most part could careless about LEO's until they need one then they can't do anything right in the publics eyes. This is because the public, generally and not in all cases, has no idea what the policies and laws that apply that both allow the officer to do things and constrain what he/she is allowed to do.

FB

This is also why newly hired officers are very rarley allowed to operate without direct supervision from at least a field training officer. As with most occupations school teachs you the theory of the job, you do most of your learning on how to actually do the job from your peers.

FB

Apples and oranges.

How many years do MDs spend at school, followed by internship and residency, compared to how much training an LEO receives?

Have some idea about this one, but certainly not to the same extent.

Some years ago (It was still Cold War era), when I worked for a defense contractor, I was told some of the same things.

I wonder what happened to the passengers who said "none of your |>|-|U><O.-1|\|' business'?

That would have make it clear if this was consensual contact or a de facto Terry stop without RAS.

Not enough of them. There are books written on how to scam the psych evaluation. About the only guaranteed flush-out is to score too high on the IQ test.

This is why YouTube is a great tool and why police attempt to arrest anyone recording their actions.

I don't agree it takes a good three to four years before an officer is truly competent in all aspects of his job. The average academy the officer attends is about 16 to 22 weeks. The academy the officer attends usually is being run 5 days a week with the officer attending classes 8 hours on each of those 5 days. If you use the low end of 16 weeks that officer has spent 640 hours in one class or another. A four year bachelor’s degree is obtained with on average with 121 to 128 credit hours. Before anyone goes nuts I am not suggesting that the officer should be awarded a BA for the academy, I am suggesting however a lot of time is spent making sure that the officer is well versed on the legal points of doing his job. The training is very specific, intense and the material is well covered.

However, pick any other occupation that you care too. Pilot, train engineer, fire fighter, paramedic, for the most part the general public does not go around telling those folks that they not only know how to do their job but can do it better without any of the training that officer under goes.

FB

You are welcome to record me anytime you wish. Officers are well aware that they are recorded most of the time. Many times by their own agency. However, video is not always the infallible tool that citizens think. Many things can be misinterpreted both ways based on angle, lighting, and video quality.

FB

The officers would move on. This happens everyday. If you are truly interested in what happens I would encourage everyone to check with their local Law Enforcement agencies. Many offer civilian ride along programs, you could judge for yourself. It may offer you a very different perspective.

FB

it's all about job justification
 

they've hired all these people, and guess what; they need something to do. Unfortunately, they haven't hired intelligence people, just hired guns. When you go to an airport, you are entering a police state. I'm disgusted with harassment of people; I think it's a ploy to make us all really afraid. Actually, I blame Obama. With Obama, along came the idea of equalization. Well, now whites, asians, latinos, everybody, we all get to be treated like blacks! (Told to me by my black friend after my recent airport fiasco.)

Right, because this stuff never happened when W was prez :rolleyes:

To be fair, that's a misleading comparison.

A university "credit hour" is one hour a week over an entire semester, which is usually 13-15 weeks (once you take out time for spring break, legal holidays, and so on). It also assumes that students spend two hours outside of class on homework for each hour spent in class. Thus, a typical student load of 12-16 credit hours really translates into a 36-48 hour work week.

I've never been in a police academy, but I'm guessing that while there is homework, it can't possibly in the 2:1 ratio that is used for university work. (It's a little hard to take your firearm home and practice marksmanship at your desk.) So, let's assume maybe 30 minutes homework for each hour in class, or four hours a night. That would lead to a 60-hour work week, over 16-22 weeks.

Do the math ... let's see here ... if a 16 credit hour student load is 48 hours of work, then you have to multiply by 1.25 to get up to 60 hours/week. If a semester is only 14 weeks and an academy is 21 weeks, then you have to multiply again by 1.5 to get up to a comparable level.

So, 16 * 1.25 * 1.5 = 30 credits for a police academy, which is the equivalent of two semesters of university work. Which is certainly significant, of course ... conducting two full semesters of intensive university work (no basket-weaving courses here) in the space of only one semester.

But comparing 640 classroom hours to 120 credit hours is comparing apples and oranges.