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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:01 am
  #301  
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Originally Posted by TSORon

It does not matter if it is a search, a casual encounter, or an administrative search, they all fall into the plain sight rule, the same thing applies to the administrative search that the TSA performs. If we find it during a legal search then it is fair game.
How do you decide whether the bag of white powder in a carry on is cocaine or a legal substance?
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:03 am
  #302  
 
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Originally Posted by pmocek
Ron, how would your actions as a TSA passenger- and bag-searcher (not just you on your "Where's the weapon? Where is it? Go get the weapon!" hunts, but the entire search from when a passenger puts his bag on the belt until he gets it back from you) be different than they are now if you "went looking for" tennis balls (instead of "going looking for" WEI), but still contacted a supervisor when you found things that looked like weapons, explosives, incendiaries, drugs, pictures of naked 17.5-year-olds, stolen credit cards, fraudulent passports, or evidence of immigrations violations? Wouldn't your actions be exactly the same, regardless of whether you purported to go looking for tennis balls or to go looking for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries? If so, of what significance is the fact that you went looking for tennis balls, went looking for WEI, or went looking for nothing at all?

I still contend that your TSA search of passengers' bags is as much for drugs as it is for weapons, and you have yet to provide any thoughtful refutation of this.
Opinions vary Phil, and I dont believe that anything I can say will change yours.
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:05 am
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Originally Posted by halls120
So do you refer every bag of white powder to a law enforcement officer? Every pill in an unmarked bottle or baggie?
We can should we choose to, and be fully within both the law and the SOP. But I honestly cannot think of any way in which a pill can be used as a weapon, therefore I am not concerned about them.

Powders OTOH can be an explosive, and even if it is not depending on how it is packaged could be a suspect item.
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:08 am
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Originally Posted by halls120
How do you decide whether the bag of white powder in a carry on is cocaine or a legal substance?
I don't, LEO's do, which is why we call them.
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:14 am
  #305  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Not according to the law it dosent.

But to further the point. An officer is allowed into a home for some reason (nothing specific) and see's 5 pounds or even a single ounce of marijuana sitting on a table. He arrests the homeowner / resident. Has he violated the homeowner / residents constitutional rights? No. Better yet, the officer has a warrent for a search for a stolen car, but when he opens the garage he discovers a meth lab. He arrests the homeowner / resident. Has he violated the homeowner / residents constitutional rights? No.

It does not matter if it is a search, a casual encounter, or an administrative search, they all fall into the plain sight rule, the same thing applies to the administrative search that the TSA performs. If we find it during a legal search then it is fair game.
I think that reviewing the law might be helpful.

First, in your prior example the TSO was working in his official capacity as an agent of the government. The other two were not. So that is another reason for your analogy to fail.

Second, the plain view doctrine has its limits as well. The officer in the first instance does not have the right to start searching closets looking for drugs and doesn't have the right in the second instance to even enter the house since it is very unlikely a stolen car would be there.

Third, in both of your scenarios the officer was legally entitled to be where he is based on specific (not implied) consent or by an order of the court. An administrative search is not on the same level.

Fourth, the LEO is trained to recognize drugs. You are not.

P.S. You may want to try a new spell check program -- "dosent", "see's" and "warrent."
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:16 am
  #306  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
We can should we choose to, and be fully within both the law and the SOP. But I honestly cannot think of any way in which a pill can be used as a weapon, therefore I am not concerned about them.

Powders OTOH can be an explosive, and even if it is not depending on how it is packaged could be a suspect item.
You didn't answer my question. Do you call a LEO every time you encounter a white powder substance in a carry on?

Last edited by halls120; Jan 13, 2010 at 7:21 pm
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:27 am
  #307  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
But I honestly cannot think of any way in which a pill can be used as a weapon, therefore I am not concerned about them.
How can cash be used as a weapon?

How can marijuana be used as a weapon?

If you are worried about a powder being an explosive, why call a regular LEO? What is he going to do? Shouldn't you call a bomb expert?

Last edited by Tom M.; Jan 13, 2010 at 7:33 am
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:29 am
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Originally Posted by Tom M.
How can cash be used as a weapon?

How can marijuana be used as a weapon?
Just like a newspaper - light it on fire.
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:44 am
  #309  
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Originally Posted by ND Sol
Just like a newspaper - light it on fire.
Darn, now your gonna have TSA screeners confiscating newspapers.
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 7:52 am
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Originally Posted by TSORon
We can should we choose to, and be fully within both the law and the SOP. But I honestly cannot think of any way in which a pill can be used as a weapon, therefore I am not concerned about them.
I'm not an explosives expert, nor a pharmacist, but ... what about nitroglycerin pills? Seems like nitroglycerin is an explosive, which is within your area of concern. Are you trained to recognized an unlabeled nitroglycerin pill? Shouldn't you be?
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 9:49 am
  #311  
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Not according to the law it dosent.

But to further the point. An officer is allowed into a home for some reason (nothing specific) and see's 5 pounds or even a single ounce of marijuana sitting on a table. He arrests the homeowner / resident. Has he violated the homeowner / residents constitutional rights? No. Better yet, the officer has a warrent for a search for a stolen car, but when he opens the garage he discovers a meth lab. He arrests the homeowner / resident. Has he violated the homeowner / residents constitutional rights? No.

It does not matter if it is a search, a casual encounter, or an administrative search, they all fall into the plain sight rule, the same thing applies to the administrative search that the TSA performs. If we find it during a legal search then it is fair game.
your answers are actually both yes and no as the "in plain sight" issue is still a very grey area and it all depends upon how the officer entered, with a warrant/without a warrant and how specific the warrant is and how the judge will interpret both atty's arguments as to the seizure and arrest

Originally Posted by TSORon
I do, and this is one of those words that spell check just is not going to pick up. Stop complaining about spelling and read the posts.
first off, i did read your post but you apparently didn't read all of mine as directly above my "steeling" comment was in fact a response to your post but in case you missed it....

witnessing someone stealing (your example) is against the law and should be reported but transporting "large amounts of currency" may or may not be against the law as you do not (n.b. do not) know if a law has been violated as you do not (n.b. do not) know if said transporter of currency has or has not completed any required paperwork and as such, you as an individual may or may not be held liable for any damages incurred by the person you reported
now as to my "steeling" reference, yes, my bad as i forgot a "" but think back to your reference to me as "gman" where i thought you were inferring that i worked for the g but in fact you were shortening my name. a little humor dished out also needs to be a little humor taken, right?
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 10:08 am
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Originally Posted by pmocek
Ron, how would your actions as a TSA passenger- and bag-searcher (not just you on your "Where's the weapon? Where is it? Go get the weapon!" hunts, but the entire search from when a passenger puts his bag on the belt until he gets it back from you) be different than they are now if you "went looking for" tennis balls (instead of "going looking for" WEI), but still contacted a supervisor when you found things that looked like weapons, explosives, incendiaries, drugs, pictures of naked 17.5-year-olds, stolen credit cards, fraudulent passports, or evidence of immigrations violations? Wouldn't your actions be exactly the same, regardless of whether you purported to go looking for tennis balls or to go looking for weapons, explosives, and incendiaries? If so, of what significance is the fact that you went looking for tennis balls, went looking for WEI, or went looking for nothing at all?

I still contend that your TSA search of passengers' bags is as much for drugs as it is for weapons, and you have yet to provide any thoughtful refutation of this.
Opinions vary Phil, and I don’t believe that anything I can say will change yours.
I didn't ask for your opinion or for you to change mine. Could you please just answer the question or explicitly state that you refuse to answer?

I want to know what would be different about your actions when searching passengers if we called what you do a search for tennis balls and we declared weapons, explosives, and incendiaries incidental to the search as you presently designate drugs. Would your actions be any different? If not, then what's the difference between what you're doing now and performing a search for weapons, explosives, incendiaries, and drugs?
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Old Jan 13, 2010 | 3:44 pm
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Originally Posted by TSORon
Quite easy Phil. Where I live, citizens cannot possess either marijuana or cocaine legally. Makes the call for a LEO easy as pie. And there are still questions about the legality of the California laws concerning the medical use of marijuana. Good thing I dont live there anymore.
This is simply and blatantly not true. A citizen, in fact, can possess, quite legally, cocaine, which is a Schedule II drug under the Controlled Substances Act. In your state or any other. Many people are legally authorized to obtain and possess cocaine in your state. Unless, of course you live in Kazakhstan, which from your understanding of the government's role and your role within that may be possible.

Concerning cash, and your post, here:
Originally Posted by TSORon
It IS the business of the federal government where ITS currency goes, specially if it is outside of the country. Now, guess who I work for?
This is highly inaccurate. Where my cash goes or does not go is none of the business of the federal government. It has no right to track cash that I or anyone else spends or hides away, once I have paid taxes due on earnings. The only government interest in my cash is: Did I pay the appropriate tax on any income that I made? If the answer is yes, the government's interest in my cash ends. Whether I spend it on peanut butter or rare diamonds. The government may like to know where my cash came from but it is none of its business, as long as it was properly declared and I have paid the appropriate income tax on it.

Al Capone wasn't busted for running rum and tobacco. He was busted for not declaring and paying income tax on his earnings. Had he declared his earnings, he would not have gone to jail.

I hope I am the one you "catch" with $20k in cash on a trip. When you do and you detain me, I shall use some or all of that cash to ensure that you get your chance to use your logic to explain to a judge why you overstepped your administrative authority....oh wait! The ACLU has already given you that opportunity.
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Old Jan 16, 2010 | 1:27 am
  #314  
 
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It's been several weeks...

I contacted ND's senators and representative right after Trollkiller made his first post on the 27th. I've yet to hear anything from any of the three. While I understand Dorgan is a bit busy contemplating his retirement, that still doesn't explain why the other two have been silent to my response.

Has anyone heard anything from their elected officials?
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Old Jan 16, 2010 | 7:53 am
  #315  
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Originally Posted by n301dp
I contacted ND's senators and representative right after Trollkiller made his first post on the 27th. I've yet to hear anything from any of the three. While I understand Dorgan is a bit busy contemplating his retirement, that still doesn't explain why the other two have been silent to my response.

Has anyone heard anything from their elected officials?
No. Never has one of them addressed my concerns.
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