Mr. Strong

I'm a CX fan and agree that CX should have cancelled the flight. In fact, I'm surprised that the flight wasn't cancelled. However, I'm even more surprised that pax leaving on CX889 seriously thought that the flight would depart on time or even depart at all. It was a no brainer that travelling in and out of JFK, EWR and LGA was a mess that day and the number of airlines cancelling flights increased as the day progressed.

IT'S WAS A NOR'EASTER. CX bears some fault for not cancelling the flight. Passengers also bear some fault for seriously thinking that the flight would go smoothly. The JetBlue fiasco was only a month ago and people should know what risks there are to flying during a winter storm.

In my mind, CX assumed the risk and consequences of not cancelling the flight. Passengers on CX889 also assumed the risk and consequences of going to the airport thinking that they could seriously leave on the flight without some sort of delay or inconvenience. The Port Authority also deserves some blame. Good grief, walking outside on Friday night after work, I was pelted with sleet and the wind certainly made things worse. Driving wasn't fun either. Who in their right mind would think that flying that night on any airline would go smoothly?

CX is not perfect, but it is one of the best airlines. Hopefully CX will learn from this experience.

However, I'll give CX the benefit of the doubt with regard to inflight service on the delayed flight. My most recent experience with a delay on CX was in January; I was on CX889 and we had a minor mechanical that delayed our departure. The pilot made the announcement providing details about the mechanical and our expected time of departure. The ISM then made the announcement that the crew would shortly arrange to begin supper service while we were on the ground. Thankfully, the mechanical problem was fixed ahead of schedule and we departed about 1:10 late. The crew collected the meals quickly (I had just finished my salad) and we were off. Later on in the flight, meal service resumed. The delay was well handled in J and presumably in F too. I'm not so sure how it was in Y.

I wouldn't be surprised if CX crew handled themselves quite well under the circumstances.

fallinasleep

Earlier, you said that most airlines will allow a grace period for a fee-free rescheduling in the event of bad weather. Now, you say screw the pax.

I hope your employer shows more empathy to you when you miss your next highfallutin deal closing because you were delayed on some milk-the-miles routing than you have shown with your heartless response to those pax who are trapped in this no-win situation. I also hope your elderly parents don't get delayed on their flight for 20 extra hours when they take their upcoming anniversary trip to Hong Kong.

If CX cancels the flight or reschedules for a realistic time, this wouldn't have been an issue. No one is questioning that sh!t weather happens and that it is out of CX's control. It's how you deal with it. JetBlue learned its lesson a month ago and canceled its flights to avoid a repeat.

I wonder if CX HQ will tell the local press that CX performed better than the competition in difficult once-in-a-lifetime circumstances and point to Royal Air Maroc's stranding its pax on the tarmac for nearly 14 hours, 45% longer than what the CX pax had to endure.

Thankfully, some airlines don't try to spin everything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/18/bu...pagewanted=all

pacificboot

This whole incident goes back to the JetBlue fiasco earlier last month. Airlines must choose between whether to cancel the flight, or take a chance and use a "wait and see" approach. CX chose the later, because they hoped that the flight might have a chance of departing, but it eventually did not work out because of deicing fluids or whatnot. I mean BA's flights from JFK-LHR all, except one, departed with few hours of delays, but I'm sure CX would like to take a chance.

But to tie this isolated uncontrollable incident to CX "giving up qualify standards" and accusing members of being unrealistic or too biased towards CX is just silly. At least the pilots made an effort to inform passengers throughout the ground hold, and I'm sure a hot meal must be served during this delay.

Guy Betsy

Before we turn this thread into a 'who's right or not'... perhaps some people here should just take a time to reflect the situation...

When an airplane is on the ground and while the snow is coming down, the pilots will take instructions from the control tower as to whether it is safe to depart. It initially was - except that each aircraft had to be deiced first. Now JFK being the way it is laid out with terminals all over the place, the de-icing trucks had to go from one terminal to the next - and even if you say bring out a fleet of two dozen or more, it takes time to de-ice an aircraft. I think at JFK, like major airports that are on the snow belt require aircraft to taxi to holding 'areas' to wait to be de-iced - much like waiting for a car wash on a corwded day...Those who have never sat on an aircraft will never be able to understand the reasoning and why it takes so long. They think "Oh, it's just to spray the wings and flaps right... so they've done it so why the wait.."

Because depending on the amount of 'stuff' coming down, sometimes you need more than 2 trucks to de-ice. The news articles stated that the airport authority ran out of de-icing fluid half way through.. and by the time each aircraft received the first de-ice , they had to do it all again.

T7 - where CX docks also serves BA, AC and UA flights... Once CX leaves their gate, another aircraft has taken its place.. So imagine as you will, a parking lot in a shopping mall... Imagine it being, in say a densely populated area, and it's the day before X'mas or Chinese New Year... cars are parked all over the place waiting for a space... you have to wait till someone moves out of the space before you move in right? Some are just waiting in the lanes, some by a restricted zone... engines pumping, tempers flaring...! Think that situation.... plus snow, plus wind, plus trucks and big big aeroplanes. Where are you going to dump the contents (of the plane) onto? Shall we just open the door and ask everyone to leave by the side? If you're out there... you have to manouvere back to your terminal.. and the entire airport is just in a gridlock.

I am not defending CX - but rather trying to reason that in such circumstances that all airlines hold some form of responsibility in passenger safety and comfort. If there had been any reason to believe that it not was safe to take off, the airline would cancel. The Captain must also factor in the state of the terminal he is returning to.. would there be staff on hand? Would there be enough places for people to sit, or rest. At least on the plane, there are places to sit! So that could be many factors as to why the airline, the Captain, the Control Tower etc did what they did.

It was just a domino effect that culminated one problem after another. I'm sure the other forums must have reported some cancellations of their flights in one way or another - or rather, they are just more used to it than us here.

thegreatmrsj

Good clear post Guy - and I think I would rather always sit on a plane than have constrol ask the pilot to risk something!

Cheetah_SA

If predicting conditions that are not conducive to flying can be done so easily by you, the airline has even less excuse for getting it wrong. According to you it was a no-brainer that the storm would cause problems. Then the logical deduction is that CX has no brains since it failed to foresee this.

Surely the airline is in the best position to judge the severity of the storm and decide whether pax should board or not? They possess the best technical resources and the expertise to do so. So if they allow boarding without alerting pax to the possibilities of delay they are implicitly saying they expect the flight to leave within a reasonable time.

I have no doubt that unavoidable $h!t happens. And I have no doubt that human mistakes can exacerbate it. But how the pax are at fault I simply fail to see.

elitetraveler

Good points GB ^ In the NY Post there is a story today about a BA flight that waited on the ground seven hours before finally taking off and making it to LHR. It was wheels up at 5am. In part of the story, they talk about how difficult it was to load luggage and that the tugs had trouble getting traction.

Flights departing T7 at the same time did eventually takeoff - and it said in the report de-icing was taking three hours instead of an hour. Also, T7 is quite small and all hotels from JFK have to be accessed by bus or taxi and who knows what transportation would have been available at 2am?

It could turn out being fed and watered aboard a warm plane was the best place these folks could have spent the night.

Again, equating an overnight ordeal like this to AA in AUS where they stranded the diverted flights on the tarmac while running regularly scheduled flights to other cities or B6 where the planes were not catered is like comparing apples and oranges.


Anyone who wants to point fingers should read this story first - multiple airlines and multiple reasons for delays -

http://news.aol.com/topnews/articles...16202309990001

West Coast Ace

I don't think anyone's saying they're 'at fault' - only stating that their actions - going to JFK, checking in, and getting on the plan - contributed to the situation. After the B6/AA 'stuck on a plane' situations, anyone who went to JFK with this storm in progress should have known there was a distinct possibility of a repeat.

Cheetah_SA

Sorry, I still don't get it. If CX tells me that my flight will leave as scheduled I should still make my own judgement? And if the flight does leave I can just imagine their reaction when I tell them I missed the flight because I didn't think it would take off in the storm. Most pax don't have an option but to accept the advice of the airline. So they may be "contributing to the situation" - but only because the airline advises them to.

PTravel

What do you do with a non-refundable ticket when the airline won't allow a weather-related fee-free change? What happens if the flight gets out? What about your hotel reservations?

Sorry -- it's easy to say this if you're on a fully-refundable ticket and have flexible plans. Most people (myself included) have no choice but to believe the airline if it says, "we're going -- please board." In the past, airlines weren't shy about cancellations. Now, with them running so close to the line (if they're not already in bankruptcy), they won't cancel unless there's absolutely no alternative. These problems are the result of airline cost-cutting, not passenger error.

PresRDC

I do not know for sure if CX was allowing pax to change their flights, but all the U.S. carriers were. People who failed to take advantage of this when it was offered were foolish and naive to expect flights to run smoothly.

PresRDC

The pax are not a fault, but they ultimately made a decision to try their luck and fly. The weather forecasts made it very clear that the conditions were bad and were going to deteriorate over the course of the evening. You don't need to be an expert to figure-out that that was going to not be a smooth night for travel.

PresRDC

They do have an option. No one is forcing them to fly, even if it was going to cost them more to change flights.

PresRDC

I never said "screw" anybody. Never put words in my mouth. I chose what I say very clearly and there is nothing to read into.

I didn't realize that a) my parents were elderly and b) that they are going to Hong Kong for their anniversary. This is good to know. Thanks!

And have noticed the chorus of people complaining that JetBlue canceled so many flights? Pax have unreasonable expectations in these situations.

I'm not saying that CX made the right decision in this case, just that passengers who knowingly board planes in a snowstorm need to be prepared for this eventuality and should not complain when things go wrong.

ClipperDelta

Couldn't agree more...while it's frustrating to sit for hours on end in a metal can in these situations, these are IROP situations where people and equipment necessary are usually out of place or incapacitated, etc. and it's not as easy as one might think to just taxi back to the terminal once the airline decides to cancel a flight, etc.

I landed at JFK on Saturday morning around 0840 on DL from BOM and saw the CX 744 taxiing (little did I know then that there were still pax. on board) past us around 0900 followed by a BA 744...FWIW, it took us more than an hour to get to our gate at the DL terminal due to various reasons:

- aircraft at our gate was stuck frozen to the ground and had to be de-iced before being towed away to make way for us
- tug pushing the aircraft at our gate couldn't get past some of the snow/ice on the ground and kept slipping - they tried three times before succeeding
- still too much snow around the gate area to pull our 777 in so had to get the equipment to plow
- jetway couldn't be moved as parts of it were frozen stuck; maintenance called in to fix the jetway...

In the end, we didn't disembark until 1015, more than 1.5 hours after landing. And this was all the work required just to get one plane to the gate...You can imagine the mess that was JFK - with all kinds of displaced aircraft wandering around and/or parked at the wrong positions, with limited equipment and personnel to 'right' things, etc. - it's not hard to imagine how airplanes can be stuck going nowhere for hours...