Hostility from ISM on CX Flight
 

Newbie here.

To preface this account, I have lived in HK for more than 6 years and I'm very used to the direct and sometimes brash manner here. Also, I am an Asian woman, and every other Caucasian Man around me, before and after the ISM's conversations with me were treated with obsequious kindness.

So, my BF (MPO Gold) and I bought redemption flights to DPS and on the way back, he got an upgrade. So on board we switched and I was in J and he in Y. We've done this more times than I can count, and even in FCL. I've always been treated well and no one bats an eyelash. I thought I can always count on the same service.

ISM approaches me to ask me "What's your original seat number?" So I responded with "44X." She then responds in a louder, hostile voice "What are you doing here?" So I explained we had switched. Then she said even louder "What's your name?" So I said "I'm sorry?" ISM responded with "So I know how I may address you?" At no point did she ask to see my boarding pass. She had her iPad with her so I said surely you can figure this out because you have your iPad with you - so she did. I understand that she needs information but she could be nicer. She spoke to the other gentleman on the other end of the aisle of me and ISM was so nice to him - he moved from middle to end seat and she was saying it was okay to do so. Fine.

She left and I wrote her a note that this was the only time I've ever been humiliated on a CX flight. As the flight was delayed, she had time to come back and speak with me. She said I shouldn't be upset because she didn't mean to humiliate me. She asked as well "Did you tell anyone of my staff, did you tell anyone?" - again in a louder and openly hostile voice. I had to say "how I feel is not up to you." She then apologised "if you feel humiliated" - which is a non-apology I think. She said she would send my note back to Management and give my feedback to them. Purser tries to calm me down as I was crying quietly - she was nice.

I asked to move back to Y and the lady beside my BF was kind enough to take my seat in Business. After take off, Purser checks on me a couple of times which was nice.

TLDR : ISM was openly hostile what do I do?

Yikes sounds like a bad situation all around.

I don't mean to pour any gasoline here, but you should definitely ask to swap first. I've done the same as you many times but always, always asked the ISM in advance pre flight (and always said okay). Once they're on board eith what you're doing no risk of your situation occurring.

Also, just a heads up but never hand the forms to the crew. Ever. (Unless you specifically want them to read). Even if you seal them, the crew almost ALWAYS open them and read them. Usually only good reviews are passed along and bad ones thrown out.

As for your charge of racism, yikes. It's a very serious accusation and it doesn't sound like you have proof! From what it sounds like to me, the ISM was pissed you didn't show him/her the respect and perhaps is an insecure person. I mean, you were probably the only person in J doing this unique thing is switching seats on that flight, and maybe the ISM is a control freak. I sympathize with a bad flight but I think you really haven't explained why the ISM was racist! Which undermines a bit of what you've written, at least IMO. Having lived in HK for a decade, I've noticed there is a strong (and somewhat unfortunate) undercurrent in HK whereby folks like to accept as fact CX (and SQ) female crew treat Caucasian men amazing, and everyone else dirt, with an implied tone that the CX/SQ/etc Asian female crew are all gold diggers looking to find a foreign husband. This is quite the unfortunate stereotype for many reasons, least of all I don't see a whole lot of actual proof of it being doled out selectively (I fly with mainland and HK colleagues frequently, and feel comfortable saying a degree of flirting / etc. goes on between everyone....good or bad. I will say that a charge of sexism might be more well placed!). But this always makes me uncomfortable when I see a whiff of this argument. Anyway I'm not sure if that's your point, maybe the ISM was a guy!!

A moderator's note before this thread continues.

This thread has the potential to diverge and discuss things like racial profiling. However the OP is asking about what she can do to follow up on her particular circumstances. So let's stick to the facts of this case and not get personal.

If we diverge, the thread will be closed.

sxc
Cathay Pacific Moderator

Hi ARVHK, welcome to FlyerTalk!

Everyone's perception is different, and there is sometimes a disconnect between action and intention. Racism is indeed strong accusation, but I wasn't there, and I'm not here to assess that claim.

I guess a question back would be...what are you hoping to accomplish or receive? Is it an apology from CX? A more formal one from the ISM? Or is it compensation of some sort? I think knowing your goal in this might be helpful in finding the next step, should there be any.

circumstantial evidences based on your side of story do not give any proof of racism taking place to me. rude, perhaps. could ISM have better? absolutely.

but escalating this will lead you nowhere apart from wasting your time and further angst of inaction. i would suggest you just move on, like any other grief in your life.

next time if you want to pursue such claim, perhaps take recording. unless ISM called you by racial deragatory comments on recording you have zero luck... but if you did you can end her career there. good luck

I did hand her the note for her to read. And I suppose I don't have any proof which doesn't help me at all. I've lived here many years as well and I'm used to the directness but I really could feel the open hostility and when you see how she treated the next person who was Caucasian and Male - and her conversation with my BF then maybe I feel I've been discriminated upon. ISM is female.

Yes, an apology and discussion on the situation is all I hope for. I don't need any compensation. Any tips?

Following on:

If the OPs goal is to let CX know of your dissatisfaction, definitely write them another form or send an email. Because it sounds to me like you gave it to the ISM, and I'd bet heavy odds it won't be passed to CX mgmt if that's the case. Instead the ISM probably tossed it.

Without any real proof of racism, I recommend sticking to the facts. It sounds like service sucked and the ISM was rude. CX is a bureaucracy but they are (ostensibly) concerned about poor/rude service on board. The ISM raising her/his voice to you in front of the other passengers isn't acceptable service standards to me. I'd focus on how you felt humiliated but leave the racism / favoritism towards white people tone out of it. I think your argument will be much stronger. However, don't expect much...if you've trolled around this forum you'll find people having to follow up multiple times with CX just to not get a canned reaponse. And some of these guys had obvious "compensatory" problems, like broken IFE.

Good luck. No matter what it's terrible the ISM made you cry!

Yes, I probably should have recorded second conversation. You're right. I have no intention except to have a discussion on the flight and how the ISM could talk to people better. I could feel the hostility radiating.

Welcome to FlyerTalk ARVHK !

I accept the OP's claim that there was hostility, since that is something you can see directly. Racism, on the other hand, is an interpretation of the underlying thoughts behind the hostility, but you can't claim to know someone's thoughts. One can establish racism based on a statistical pattern in multiple events, but rarely based on a single event, unless e.g. racist words are used. One should never make such a serious claim without serious evidence.

In this case, without justifying any rudeness, it is clear why the FA was rude. Her records did not match the person in the seat (different gender, at least) so she assumed you were self-upgrading (sneaking into a higher-class seat), which happens more often that one might think. (Just last month I found an economy passenger calmly sitting in my business-class seat.) So you were NOT the same as the other passengers except for your race; therefore your experience cannot be attributed to your race.

Good morning. You mentioned that you are an Asian woman, but didn't mention your background; so I must ask: In what language did this conversation with the ISM take place? That might be relevant.

You made it very easy, of course, for ISM to see that you were not the person assigned to the seat. You are female; and your B/F is male. As mentioned upthread, you should always ask before making this type of switch; some airlines don't allow it at all. At the very least, it gives the cabin crew visibility on what you've done, which may help avoid situations like this in the future.

Regarding the gentleman on the other end of the aisle who switched seats, switching to an empty seat within a cabin is completely different from switching cabins.

There's nothing in your narrative which says racism to me. As you say, dealing with people in a brash manner isn't uncommon and you're accustomed to it. Combine that with the unauthorized switch, and I can see how ISM might have adopted a somewhat authoritarian tone possibly without even intending to do so.

Although second guessing is easy, had I been in your shoes, when she first asked for your original seat number, I might have responded something more along the lines of, "I'm assigned to 44X. I know that this isn't my seat; but my boyfriend was really nice and offered to switch seats with me so that I could sit in business class." ISM might have been more reasonable in her approach if she knew right from the start that you weren't a seat poacher. She probably approached you initially as a self-upgrader; and you didn't give her any contrary information until she asked for it. If that was the case, it would, IMO, explain the attitude.

My approach is always to try to avoid the controversy/argument rather than win it.

Honestly had the ISM been more friendly towards OP and the BF in EY, while she takes care of the rest of the passengers in EY...this wouldn't whole thing might have been forgotten already.

I think the ISM should have known better, even if OP switched seats [violates safety procedure] and IM is just "doing her job" and she didn't mean any offense by the fact that OP felt slighted and needed to write down a note for her. she should have extended some courtesy or service recovery during the flight.

I think it's clear she's responsible and can ask questions but I don't understand how she is justified in her rudeness? Any tip how best to open the conversation with CX?

Also didn't realise that many people would self-upgrade. That would be crazy embarassing and now only realise common it is!

Hi Dr. HFH. Conversation and note to ISM was in English. I should keep your suggestion in mind for future use - it's a good suggestion. We've done this before and never really had any sort of problem - we only ever told a crew member once and then after that it was all clear.

I would understand skepticism from her end and her need to match her records but her open hostility is difficult to accept.

Wouldn't it have been more polite for the ISM to simply ask, "Madam, may I please see your boarding pass?"

I've seen two people on a seat across me 11D/G once, the ISM approached the and said "Gentlemen, I don't see you on my roster, may I see your boarding pass?" Then she said, "XXXXX is further down, thank you." She remained polite though out the situation.

By asking "What are you doing here?" she has already set a hostile tone. Something which is a clear no-no in the service industry.

I guess this is CX784? Sigh it's the horrible high-density 77Z and I've some minor but memorable service issues on that flight in the front also.

I think the ISM is within her rights to query the passenger but once the op-up is identified, there's no need to continue querying.

Service on that flight feels horribly rushed, which I thought was totally unnecessary given the length of the flight.

How can they rush the service if its a 5hr flight? Is it a turn around for the crew?

I still don't see why she felt it was necessary to be rude. Self-upgrading happens all the time, but most deal with it well, they are never rude. Just ask for the boarding pass and point them where their seats are. It's not difficult.

I'm not sure, I guess it is - I've been to DPS quite a bit and never see the FAs off the plane at DPS.

Seems like a storm in a teacup: reading your account, I don't see the evidence for your assertion that there was hostility, which is a strong word.

When the lady asked how to pronounce your name and you told her (basically) to look it up in her iPad, you come across to me at least as the one being hostile.

No, rudeness is not justified, and I did say I was not trying to justify rudeness. I was just explaining what happened here.

You spoiled your case by making an overly serious accusation. Now that the word 'racism' has been deleted from the subject line, this is a more reasonable thread and discussion.

[PS I just remembered an additional detail about "my" self-upgrader. He was not only sitting calmly in my seat, he was calmly drinking a pre-departure beverage. The Etihad flight attendant politely but firmly took the half-empty glass away from him...]

DPS is about 5hrs? Wow...that's tough

+1. Whenever a crew member asks my name - for whatever reason - I always answer. And my name being 'difficult' to English speakers, I also spell it for them slowly and clearly. Always stay polite towards the crew to reduce tension no matter how unjustified it might be.

In my experience, don't let the crew dictate questions (eg: what was ur original seat, who are you flying with, what's your name etc..) I appreciate not everyone is as confident, but if you can take control of the situation fast, and overburden them with information you will put their mind at ease about your being there "My partner was allocated this seat, and he kindly gave it to me for extra brownie points, he is in 44E and his name is Mr Gold. I trust this seat swap is okay with your crew."

Crew see 'self-upgraders' on almost every flight and quite rightly, these people are promptly sent back. This is where the perceived negative attitude of the crew might come from.

Interestingly, I experienced the flip side of this on the weekend. On a non-CX flight (where I had no status), the pax next to me changed seats before takeoff, without speaking to the crew, as they didn't want to be next to Little Miss Doot (and with plenty of empty seats further back - it's perfectly understandable). I proceeded to move over one and take their original seat. The manager came to greet me after takeoff, offered me wine, anything I needed, etc. By not telling the crew - I assumed my old-seatmates in-flight status benefits :-) This is why you should always alert the crew prior to moving.

Interesting to note that the purser (I assume FP) did not side with the ISM. perhaps the ISM is one of the 'top ten' or 'on list' ones, so all the crew knew that she was hard to deal with!

But this isn't how the OP handled the situation. They started out explaining they were in 44x with no explanation, and then refused to give their name.

Had the OP taken the front foot, been polite, explained the situation I'm sure the outcome would have been different.

I've done swaps before, but always informed the crew (not necessarily to ask 'permission', but at least to inform them).

I'm probably the odd one out here, but I'm siding with the ISM. For the ISM to have an unidentified passenger in the cabin and not challenge it would be worse (as the OP claims on previous flights).

I'm basically with the ISM too. When you're doing something that is (very strictly) against the rules then being polite and proactive with the crew is the very least you can do.

Without knowing all the facts, i think the ism is rude. I think some of her behaviour is not asked for.
However, to be easy on everyone, i always tell the ism right when i board if i were to swap seats w anyone between different class. At leadt i do my part.

yea gotta agree with kaka here

You might be right, although it could have been the SP since she was the J Purser, FP are normally assigned in the galley.

Perhaps the reason why we know that we must inform the cabin crew is because most of us travel often and we know more about the workings in the galley than most regular flyers out there. I guess to normal people, I give you my BP, you give me yours, and we're okay.

I know in some airlines and maybe pre-iPad CX, they just do a count and as long as it matches the number on the manifest, then they are safe.

No views on the situation - I just don't know the other side of the story.

But having been in the one of the two in the party (me) gets upgraded situation many times, we've always made it a point to ask before swapping. Besides being the proper thing to do, many of those flights made for better-than-what's-considered-good-for-DM flights with the crew taking extra special care of me in the originally booked class. Wifey being reminded (very nicely and classily, I must add) a couple of times about how good a guy I was / how lucky she was - serves as an icing ;)

There are people who self-upgrade, but as you were in an occupied seat without anybody challenging, you would most likely be there with the consent of the original occupant. I would expect the ISM to expect that.

Yes, it is more appropriate to ask before swapping. The cabin crew may also like to make sure that the two passengers will not swap back and forth, and that the passenger sitting in Y will not come to visit J unnecessarily.

Still, some of the questions ought not have to be asked.

And i wonder if you lot flew in J that you werent addressed by ur name? I dont mind much but i wasnt expecting so on cx j- esp from ism (actually i wasnt addressed at all throughout my flight)
Facts: because of some dodgy manifest i removed all my ffp from my award booking yet i got upgraded from W ahead of olci as a ows (gf being cx gr also got pre-opuped... i only olci when i was taking the shuttlebus to KIX from ITM)
I boarded and i slept right away so if the ism did come around for greetings, i was asleep. Woke up just when icecream was being served. I ordered my icecream, but from then on i was just addressed as sir. Not that i mind, but is this going to be the service standard of cx J?

Anyways,
As I ordered icecream along w baileys. So i was expecting to get the table cloth since it was still table service... if i didnt remember wrongly, midnight snacks on LH also has a table cloth?
There was no table cloth, and i ordered 2 items and the ism proactively offered me the 2nd flavour of icecream. So my table ended up w a lot of wet tissue paper (icecream on plate; 2nd icecream without plate-wet tissue; baileys on tissue- wet tissue). Rather unclassy. Lol.

Not sure how this affects the discussion with OP and ISM.

Not sure what you mean about dodgy manifest...but i know in J, they each get a copy of the seat charts with the last names on them, in the corner of the box you can see your status. DM/GO/SL/GR...EM of Emeralds. My guess either the crew didn't have the paper on the cart, or its too dark to read. Even on regional routes they tuck the paper under the tray for easy reference.

As for ISM greeting as a OWS, Black and White, the ISM isn't require to greet you. The SP on the other hand greets everyone in J when he/she hands out the menu cards.

I believe snacks don't have table cloth, in fact on regional flights they don't give them out on very short flights like MNL and TPE. However they normally put the ice cream on the square bread plate with the grey CX tissue as a liner.

I'm not sure if my response was deleted or it didnt push through...anyway I think bottomline both the OP and ISM could have handled it better. :D

it may receive quick respond if OP post a comment on CX facebook page.
this works for many firm. Email never reply, when put it on FB, receive instant reply.

Or cxsecret?