I was booking my next flight YOW-YVR-LAX, and I thought I'd price what it would cost to buy Business Class YVR-LAX-YVR. I've had really good luck with upgrades between Ottawa and Vancouver, and while my luck has been almost as good north-south, it's always a last-minute thing and I end up in the bulkhead row anyway [which I dislike].

I was astonished at what I found. My "B" ticket to LA through Vancouver is C$2406.31 including taxes. Totally changeable, refundable, no Saturday stay, etc., etc. But to buy a ticket just to Vancouver with the same conditions is C$3163.99 ("Y1"). The only "B" fare to Vancouver is C$2354.00, requires 3-day advance purchase, Saturday night stay, $100 to change, non refundable. This seems somewhat ridiculous. AC is $11 more on the Y fare. [Rhetorical question: how much more gouge-ic could one airline become?]

So there's no point in buying an economy ticket YOW-YVR-YOW and a Business Class ticket YVR-LAX-YVR, it's cheaper to buy Business Class all the way.

In fact, there's a "C" class fare of C$3470.92 total. This is supposed to be a reduced Business Class fare, good until October 2nd. ITN doesn't list "C" fares.

My questions: is this "C" fare really a special, or is it just a permanent reduced fare, like "M" (vs. "Y")? And why doesn't itn show it?

This would still be somewhat extravagant (and have a lousy routing coming home, LAX-YVR-YYC-YOW, since "C" is sold out YVR-YOW and there are now [then] only 2 flights; but it's the same 8am flight out of LAX either way, since the 10:xx flight is sold out in economy, I'd have the connection in Calgary instead of sitting for 3+ hours in the YVR lounge). The extra $1000 is a lot, but it's really "only" $600 since I'll save $370 worth of upgrade stickers. Plus get an extra 1600 Q-miles, which I could rationalize are worth something. Plus the comfort of knowing I'm in Business Class. Maybe I could force myself to do some billable work inflight to pay for it!

Any advice will be appreciated!

Thanks!
andrew

Andrew-how did you know about this 'C' fare? ITN does not show every fare , that's one of the problems with it!

CP should just display J class on its availability. C Class is reserved for 'discounted' fares in Business like the OneWorld fares, and 6J class seats does not 6C class seats left.

If CP quoted you the C class discounted seat, then I'd take their word for and go for it. Good gosh - I had forgotten how expensive fares had become within North America - in economy class yet!

The roundtrip in coach is almost as expensive as a Business Class ticket from Sydney to London (return) on Qantas/Air France !

Plus there are no stopover privileges either!

Welcome to the world of airline ticket pricing, where the motto is: "Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise." You've stumbled on what is now known as "hidden cities." (Apparently, it used to have a different meaning, but this is common usage now.)

BCTV (the vancouver CTV station) recently slammed CP for the fact that you could fly SEA-YVR-BKK for about $700 less than YVR-BKK. Of course, they conveniently ignored the fact that on AC you could fly SEA-YVR-YHZ for about $700 less than YVR-YHZ, even though it was pointed out to them before the story aired. (Their explanation was that AC was not a federal government "subsidized" airline, notwithstanding the fact that any liablities that CP had to the feds have long since been settled.)

Other examples are YVR-MIA or YVR-DFW, in J class on AA. Ticket YVR-DFW-MIA-SJO (Costa Rica), then get off in either DFW or MIA to save a thousand bucks. First class on BA YVR-LHR? Buy YVR-LHR-HAM, and save $1500. MKE-MSP? Buy MKE-MSP-anywhere, save a huge bundle.

It takes a little research, and it pisses off the airlines royally if you do it, but it is easy to find these "hidden cities."

Regards,

Ken Hamer

Celestar, the agent on the phone quoted it. I brought it up because I wanted to buy economy to Vancouver and back, but was considering buying Business to LAX. Since the unrestricted fare to Vancouver is actually more expensive, and they won't upgrade just some segments, this was his suggestion. He said it's unusual but I know not to believe them. The extra $1000 is a bit extravagant, but I finally didn't get an upgrade on LAX-YVR on Saturday. I'd forgotten how poorly economy suits me. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif And the 737 even had power in the seats! I guess the fare is real, I guess it's not common though. Better take it! (BTW, AC's site shows C fares which I assume are the same; I'm finding CP's online reservations system more and more useless as I use it -- and as they reduce capacity in the middle of my next trip, its failings become more obvious!).

BB, my $2400 (all-in) B fare to LAX actually allows a stopover in Vancouver. The agent didn't believe me either, but I first noticed it when I switched, since AC kept hitting me for an extra charge to stop off in Toronto. I could even spend a month in Vancouver on the way home if I wanted! (On the "B" fare to LAX).

Ken, you're right I guess I wasn't thinking. This is the old idea that the only competition for my YOW-YVR is Air Canada, but for YOW-LAX they're competing with US, AA, AC, UA, CO, NW, and maybe others. It's still stupid.

Guess I'll take this opportunity if it's still there. The flight back is LAX[8am]-YVR-YYC-YOW[10pm] since "C" is sold out on YVR-YOW (737s all the way). But since "Y" and "B" are sold out on the following flight out of LAX, my "B" fare is LAX[8am]-YVR-YOW[10pm] anyway.

Thanks again for the suggestions!

andrew


[This message has been edited by Andrew Webber (edited 09-01-1999).]

That BR fare "STOPOVERS
A FREE STOPOVER IS PERMITTED AT YVR, IF IN ROUTING APPLICABLE TO FARE. A STOPOVER OCCURS WHEN THE PASSENGER DOES NOT DEPART AN INTERMEDIATE POINT WITHIN 4 HOURS." has got to be one of the few North American fares that allows this. I checked UA, AA, NW, AC and all do not allow. Canadian apparently is the only one (but only in YVR, maybe to capture some of those having to overnight to get on Asia bound planes?)

The bizarre thing is that the B economy fare allows the stopover in YVR but an unrestricted business class fare does not!

BB, I didn't realize J didn't allow a stopover. I couldn't believe the wording of the thing you quoted (when I saw it on the CP site) so I tested it by checking an itinerary YOW-YVR-LAX-YVR/wait1month/YOW and it was the same price! The CP agent didn't believe me on Monday, either. I'm more surprised that it's a surprise here. http://talk.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Actually I just slipped over to cdnair.ca and I think the Business Class fare does allow a YVR stopover.

Here's the rule for
FJ: FIRST CLASS UNRESTRICTED NORMAL FARE, Origin / Destination LOS ANGELES, CA to VANCOUVER, BC, CANADA:
"A FREE STOPOVER IS PERMITTED AT YVR, IF IN ROUTING APPLICABLE TO FARE. A STOPOVER OCCURS WHEN THE PASSENGER DOES NOT DEPART AN INTERMEDIATE POINT WITHIN 4 HOURS."

I do know Aeroplan tickets allow one stopover, we flew YOW-ORD-YYZ-YOW last fall, I on a cheap return with a YYZ connection, and dropped my wife (travelling on my points) in Toronto for a visit with her parents. But as I said, AC kept charging me to stop in Toronto on my B3 tickets (which are refundable, but not as loose as CP's). In the end I stopped that, since they were converting the ticket (at least the return part) to "M", crediting me ~$30 for the unused YYZ-YOW segment, then charging me ~$300 for an "M" YYZ-YOW. I gave up and bought a BC ticket with points (flew home on the first segment, then used the second as the start of another trip; I'll always have one-half Aeroplan ticket to Toronto!).


No response when I click on the link to CR1, though. (I'll edit this if it comes through).

andrew

Celestar, here's some more info on the "C" fare.

I went ahead and bought it (how extravagant!) When I called, the first agent couldn't figure it out and then I got accidentally cut off. When I called back, the next agent knew how to do it and of course I demanded an explanation.

The CR1 does seem analogous to the BR1. It (CR1) is definitely not available within Canada, she said. It's based on a round trip, it doesn't pop up if you ask for YOW-LAX, but YOW-LAX-YOW will happily display fare codes of CR1,CR1,FJ,FJ.

There's a limited quantity (as you said, and as the agent said on Monday, there can be J seats but no C, e.g. on the YVR-YOW I wanted). Here's why the first agent today couldn't figure it out (he's probably new).

You (the agent) don't pick it from the availability list, if it's allowed on that flight you just plug it in. Or something, I've never seen their screens.

Note that the CP site will offer it if you ask for Business Class and if it's available. But since that stupid site doesn't even indicate a flight is sold out in economy until you try to price it, it's a bit of a shot in the dark.

If you want to test it, try booking this Business Class itinerary on CP's site (you'll have to specify YOW-LAX,LAX-YVR,YVR-YOW, I already bought my ticket so fire away!):

Sept19@1040, YOW-YVR, CP919
Sept19@1405, YVR-LAX, CP509
Sept25@0800, LAX-YVR, CP500
Sept25@1210, YVR-YYC, CP662
Sept25@1605, YYC-YOW, CP906

and you should see CR1 codes. Clicking on that link times out.

The second agent thought these weren't widely advertised, which seems pretty pointless. AC's site, by contrast, has that table of prices that includes a "C" column, and the flyer that came in the mail explicitly talks about "C" fares.

I guess from now on I'll have to ask if "C" is valid on my flights, then get them to try.

andrew

Thanks Andrew, but I doubt I won't have a chance to try it out. I don't fly within North America, nor will buy fares from within. Not in the near future anyway. Plus if I had a CRS, I'd do the booking myself! Actually the first CP agent could have checked fare rules on fares from YVR to YOW, booked it in C, asked the computer to price it under C. If it prices, then the fare is legit.



[This message has been edited by Celestar340 (edited 09-01-1999).]

Thought I should post an update on how this turned out.

There aren't "C" fares (CR1) offered for my October, November, or December trips YOW-YVR-LAX, but considering how they've cut capacity YOW-YVR, I'm not surprised.

The CR1 trip I took in September has turned out even more fruitful than I thought. (I knew I was paying several hundred dollars more than my regular economy fare plus stickers, but I thought it was worthwhile for the advance knowledge).

1. Of course I got the 25% class-of-service bonus, that's 2111 extra q-miles over "B" class, connecting at Toronto on the way home.

2. I got 5000 bonus miles for flying in Business Class (and paying with Amex?). I'd forgotten that.

3. I had calculated that the 25% bonus would have put me at ~34700 after my October trip coming up. But having to connect through YYZ (LAX-YVR-YYZ-YOW) on that CR1 fare means I'll have 35061 after my October trip! So my first segment in November (YOW-YVR) will include the 50% bonus for another 1107pt. (This assumes I don't make a paid trip to YYZ before that).

All told, that CR1 fare earned me 8218 extra points, plus the extra Amex MR points for a more-expensive ticket.

andrew

Andrew: Did you stay at the Renaissance in LA? Hopefuly it lived up to your expectations!

[This message has been edited by Flyaway (edited 10-10-1999).]

flyaway, actually it was LB. I liked it, although I didn't find it as much nicer than the Westin as I expected.

But both are nice. I booked into the Renaissance again for my October trip, although I'm starting to think I should just qualify for Starwood Gold and quit worrying about what will happen to my eligibility for paid Gold status a couple of years for now. Maybe I'll wait until after February (when they'll renew me again for $50), then qualify and see if I get free Gold through February 2002!

andrew

With regard to point #3 above -- on CP, you will get the 50% bonus starting with the flight that actually puts you over the 35,000 mile threshold. If it was the YYZ-YOW flight, then it won't be that big a bonus, but if it was YVR-YYZ (or something like that) all the better.

I discovered this when I made Platinum on YVR-BOS. Got me an extra 2514 points I wasn't expecting.

Regards,

Ken Hamer

Thanks for the info. It could actually be significant.

The statements always seem to show the segments in reverse order, and I assume the miles are credited in the order they appear on the statement.

So if I fly LAX-YVR-YYZ-YOW in October, I'll get 250 extra miles for crossing 35000 on the last segment, plus another 130 for the longer trip, but if I fly LAX-YVR-YOW, I'll get 1107 for crossing 35000.

andrew