Question for the BA regulars about the AA/BA pairing
Aug 16, 2008, 7:51 am
#16
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Soon to be LEGT
Posts: 10,928
I think you will find they also compete in the back, and not just for businesspeople. Most full-service carriers offer lots and lots of Y tickets around the GBP200-250 mark rtn, and you'll find no shortage of intra-Europe VFR and leisure traffic comprising of people who are prepared to pay a bit more for humane treatment and generally a more relaxed travel experience.
Aug 16, 2008, 8:07 am
#17
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin
Posts: 4,629
Thankfully I haven't, but Phoenix isn't really on my list of must-visit places.
There is no other perspective. BA flies to fewer UK airports than KLM, does not offer any flights to BHX, offers no premium cabins to UK destinations outside London, as well as requiring two stops for the BA codeshared IB flights to most parts of S. America.
Regardless of whether you like it or not (I don't) or whether it makes financial sense (I don't think it does but the jury is still out on that), BA is focused more on the US than it is on the UK. To assert that it's "staunchly British focused" borders on the ridiculous!
There is no other perspective. BA flies to fewer UK airports than KLM, does not offer any flights to BHX, offers no premium cabins to UK destinations outside London, as well as requiring two stops for the BA codeshared IB flights to most parts of S. America.
Regardless of whether you like it or not (I don't) or whether it makes financial sense (I don't think it does but the jury is still out on that), BA is focused more on the US than it is on the UK. To assert that it's "staunchly British focused" borders on the ridiculous!
Phoenix is a large city with a population that would roughly place it in the top 8 cities in the EU. If you don't want to go there I understand but its obviously not a backwater. Some people love it, others hate it.
Aug 16, 2008, 8:08 am
#18
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mostly AUS or rural England
Programs: BAEC redundant Bronze, AAdvantage Lifetime PLT, CO, WN, B6
Posts: 6,526
I think you will find they also compete in the back, and not just for businesspeople. Most full-service carriers offer lots and lots of Y tickets around the GBP200-250 mark rtn, and you'll find no shortage of intra-Europe VFR and leisure traffic comprising of people who are prepared to pay a bit more for humane treatment and generally a more relaxed travel experience.
Aug 16, 2008, 8:13 am
#19
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin
Posts: 4,629
One thing I believe you're seeing with BA & Lufthansa in Europe is full service carriers can compete effectively against LCC's by focusing on 1) long haul services where service counts for more and 2) on select business-heavy short haul routes where they can achieve good price premiums based on convenience and service and which feed traffic to the long haul service. If you look, BA seems ot have walked away from everything else, including regional services.
If that model works and you map it to the US, the bigger change may not be nasty Americans swamping the dear old Brits, but from BA radically downsizing AA's US domestic services, putting the premium back in the international services and finally putting a perishing focus on the business that's been sadly lacking, particularly since Carty left.
If that model works and you map it to the US, the bigger change may not be nasty Americans swamping the dear old Brits, but from BA radically downsizing AA's US domestic services, putting the premium back in the international services and finally putting a perishing focus on the business that's been sadly lacking, particularly since Carty left.
Aug 16, 2008, 8:13 am
#20
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mostly AUS or rural England
Programs: BAEC redundant Bronze, AAdvantage Lifetime PLT, CO, WN, B6
Posts: 6,526
To connect this to my earlier point, BA is alleged to get some advertising support from the Phoenix City budget, but that aside, it's instructive that BA chooses to fly to PHX rather than LAS. With the possible exception of MCO & TPA that are served from LGW, all the other US gateways served from LHR are business-heavy destinations with populations in multiple millions.
Aug 16, 2008, 8:20 am
#21
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mostly AUS or rural England
Programs: BAEC redundant Bronze, AAdvantage Lifetime PLT, CO, WN, B6
Posts: 6,526
You clearly have a lot more faith in Arprey than me!
My hunch is AA would have a huge problem in implementing such a change - the Unions. It's already suffering from problems and has a very demotivated workforce. To now announce it's going to halve its domestic network and shed Eagle would suppose a cut of 10-20,000 staff that I doubt it could accomplish, even if it believed that was the best way forwards. It's much easier to let the nasty foreigners acquire the business, possibly from Chapter 11, and let them do the dirty work.
Aug 16, 2008, 8:22 am
#22
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin
Posts: 4,629
You are wrong, this proposed BA/AA/IB tie-up on transatlantic (I hate the term TATL) routes is not a merger. I suggest you get your fact straight before posting. In fact there are a variety of reasons for which BA and AA will never fully merge.
Calm down. We are talking about 2 issues at the same time in this thread. One is the joint services that would be allowed if the airlines receive anti-trust immunity and the other is BA's publicly stated interest in buying AA if allowed. I look forward to not sitting next to you on a future flight.
The problem some BA FFs (including myself) have with this proposed venture regards the possibility of AAdvantage members being allowed to redeem miles on J and F BA award seats. Since BA's product is far superior to AA's, AAdvantage members would almost certainly prefer to redeem AAdvantage miles (which BTW are ridiculously easier to accumulate than BA miles) on BA-operated flights. Consequently we are concerned that the already fairly scarce inventory of premium award seats on certain UK-US routes would be gobbled up by AAdvantage tredemptions.
Additionally there is a concern that because of a likely disproportionately higher number of people wanting to fly BA rather than AA-operated flights, I and A class seat availability on BA-op'd flights would be much harder to come by.
Fine. This is covered in the other thread. My question was about any positives that you see for BA Executive Club members.
Calm down. We are talking about 2 issues at the same time in this thread. One is the joint services that would be allowed if the airlines receive anti-trust immunity and the other is BA's publicly stated interest in buying AA if allowed. I look forward to not sitting next to you on a future flight.
The problem some BA FFs (including myself) have with this proposed venture regards the possibility of AAdvantage members being allowed to redeem miles on J and F BA award seats. Since BA's product is far superior to AA's, AAdvantage members would almost certainly prefer to redeem AAdvantage miles (which BTW are ridiculously easier to accumulate than BA miles) on BA-operated flights. Consequently we are concerned that the already fairly scarce inventory of premium award seats on certain UK-US routes would be gobbled up by AAdvantage tredemptions.
Additionally there is a concern that because of a likely disproportionately higher number of people wanting to fly BA rather than AA-operated flights, I and A class seat availability on BA-op'd flights would be much harder to come by.
Fine. This is covered in the other thread. My question was about any positives that you see for BA Executive Club members.
Aug 16, 2008, 8:26 am
#23
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Falkirk, Scotland,VS Red, BA Gold, HH Diamond,UK Amex Plat
Programs: Master of the Privy Purse des Muccis
Posts: 17,915
I love Phoenix!
Hi,
I love Phoenix and am grateful that BA fly non stop from LHR T5 ( off in 13 days!).
lots of good shopping, lots of excellent hotels ( esp in summer with great rates- the hilton Squaw peak ( all rooms are suites) for $109 per night.
Close to Tucson and a short drive from Sedona, montezuma's castle. Jerome and Verde Canyon railroad.
Regards
TBS
I love Phoenix and am grateful that BA fly non stop from LHR T5 ( off in 13 days!).
lots of good shopping, lots of excellent hotels ( esp in summer with great rates- the hilton Squaw peak ( all rooms are suites) for $109 per night.
Close to Tucson and a short drive from Sedona, montezuma's castle. Jerome and Verde Canyon railroad.
Regards
TBS
Aug 16, 2008, 8:32 am
#24
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin
Posts: 4,629
You clearly have a lot more faith in Arprey than me!
My hunch is AA would have a huge problem in implementing such a change - the Unions. It's already suffering from problems and has a very demotivated workforce. To now announce it's going to halve its domestic network and shed Eagle would suppose a cut of 10-20,000 staff that I doubt it could accomplish, even if it believed that was the best way forwards. It's much easier to let the nasty foreigners acquire the business, possibly from Chapter 11, and let them do the dirty work.
My hunch is AA would have a huge problem in implementing such a change - the Unions. It's already suffering from problems and has a very demotivated workforce. To now announce it's going to halve its domestic network and shed Eagle would suppose a cut of 10-20,000 staff that I doubt it could accomplish, even if it believed that was the best way forwards. It's much easier to let the nasty foreigners acquire the business, possibly from Chapter 11, and let them do the dirty work.
Aug 16, 2008, 9:13 am
#25
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
I think you will find they also compete in the back, and not just for businesspeople. Most full-service carriers offer lots and lots of Y tickets around the GBP200-250 mark rtn, and you'll find no shortage of intra-Europe VFR and leisure traffic comprising of people who are prepared to pay a bit more for humane treatment and generally a more relaxed travel experience.
Aug 16, 2008, 9:31 am
#26
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin
Posts: 4,629
Good point. If there is anything to be learned from the US airline industry since deregulation in 1978 it is that.
Aug 16, 2008, 9:36 am
#27
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mostly AUS or rural England
Programs: BAEC redundant Bronze, AAdvantage Lifetime PLT, CO, WN, B6
Posts: 6,526
Oh, and in case you're wondering, I think one of the reasons BA has been sliding (though not as fast as AA!) is because of the leadership.
Aug 16, 2008, 9:57 am
#28
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Programs: AA GLD .25MM, CO, UA, US, DL, HH, SPG (all cardboard)
Posts: 1,951
Have you thought how similar the current position of the US carriers is to the one BA found itself in prior to privatization? For those too young to remember BA was essentially bankrupt; kept alive by drip feeds of taxpayers money. The reason BA survived and prospered was because King and Marshall had a vision of of how to create a profitable airline, and the skill and service industry knowledge to get there. There have been people in the US industry who had that marketing 'feel', who knew where to position the business, how to build brands and how to run operations, but sadly I don't think ANY of the current leaders of the six legacies fall into that category. The guys who do seem to have a clue are in Southwest (though Kelleher has retired now) and JetBlue, though their operations skill lagged the vision and leadership.
Oh, and in case you're wondering, I think one of the reasons BA has been sliding (though not as fast as AA!) is because of the leadership.
Oh, and in case you're wondering, I think one of the reasons BA has been sliding (though not as fast as AA!) is because of the leadership.
Aug 16, 2008, 9:57 am
#29
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Austin
Posts: 4,629
Have you thought how similar the current position of the US carriers is to the one BA found itself in prior to privatization? For those too young to remember BA was essentially bankrupt; kept alive by drip feeds of taxpayers money. The reason BA survived and prospered was because King and Marshall had a vision of of how to create a profitable airline, and the skill and service industry knowledge to get there. There have been people in the US industry who had that marketing 'feel', who knew where to position the business, how to build brands and how to run operations, but sadly I don't think ANY of the current leaders of the six legacies fall into that category. The guys who do seem to have a clue are in Southwest (though Kelleher has retired now) and JetBlue, though their operations skill lagged the vision and leadership.
Oh, and in case you're wondering, I think one of the reasons BA has been sliding (though not as fast as AA!) is because of the leadership.
Oh, and in case you're wondering, I think one of the reasons BA has been sliding (though not as fast as AA!) is because of the leadership.
Aug 16, 2008, 10:28 am
#30
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mostly AUS or rural England
Programs: BAEC redundant Bronze, AAdvantage Lifetime PLT, CO, WN, B6
Posts: 6,526
You and I have very different ideas about the willingness of the US market to pay a premium price. The US is about the size of Europe, but it is sufficiently integrated that not serving parts of it will not work for an airline, except with partners and codeshares. I just don't believe that there are customers willing to pay a significant premium for domestic travel.
There is nothing fundamentally different about the marketplace. The people all have the same basic human needs; the same psychology. People on both sides of the Atlantic buy Lexus as well as Toyota. They buy single malt whisky, stay in premium Hotels, use Hertz/Avis as well as Enterprise, buy Kellogs as well as supermarket own brand breakfast cereal. There is nothing magically different about air travel - it's the role of competent managers to segment the market and focus their product on the right demographic. Marketing is about branding and image - a fact the 'grey' and anonymous US carriers have forgotten. To my mind American has to become the carrier that "delivers you refreshed, on time, ready to do business" not the one that bashes "our lowest price guarantee" down our throats at every opportunity - the cost isn't important - it's all about selling the advantages (sorry!).
The biggie to my mind is does BA corporately remember enough of this to help AA if (when?) they're allowed to acquire control? Unfortunately I'm far from sure of that.