Pilots strike talks break down. [2008 thread]
Mar 13, 2008, 1:57 pm
#166
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Actually, I think what you just said may be an important point, but in BA's favor. I don't pretend to be an expert on labor law. Working in the tech industry, our idea of job security is, "Did I get paid this week?" But here is my novice's take.
By developing it as a separate subsidiary with a separate union, BA has flexibility if the whole project does not work out. They can cleanly close down the entire operation if the open skies agreement does not proceed. If the new pilots are actually part of the BA mainline operation, does that not become more problematic for BA? These pilots would not be separate, but be part of the overall seniority list. When it came time for furlough because Open Skies did not live up to expectations, they may have more seniority than the U.K. based pilots - putting those U.K. based pilots who are familiar with U.K. operations at risk. A thought from someone uninformed and I would love to hear from more esteemed folks.
By developing it as a separate subsidiary with a separate union, BA has flexibility if the whole project does not work out. They can cleanly close down the entire operation if the open skies agreement does not proceed. If the new pilots are actually part of the BA mainline operation, does that not become more problematic for BA? These pilots would not be separate, but be part of the overall seniority list. When it came time for furlough because Open Skies did not live up to expectations, they may have more seniority than the U.K. based pilots - putting those U.K. based pilots who are familiar with U.K. operations at risk. A thought from someone uninformed and I would love to hear from more esteemed folks.
Last edited by ictiosapiens; Mar 13, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Mar 13, 2008, 5:05 pm
#167
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Sorry jumbodriver, but I share the feeling that the documents you mention are full of rhetoric and impossible to understand by the common traveller.
I do not live in UK, so the only attraction to fly BA longhaul is good product at low price (compared to a nonstop flight). I have just cancelled a biz booking for April 23 and rebooked a more expensive, but safer, nonstop alternative. Believe me, this is abdly hurting BA abroad.
My impression is that BA pilots have been eager to strike for a long time but that they are picking a poor motive that will backfire. The question of Openskies is really marginal. The issue seems to be to threaten strike in order to keep their excellent pay and work load. Pilots should realize that industry models do evolve over time. The argument that pilots at some other airlines have similar or better pay is irrelevant; all these airlines are running into severe trouble and the eonomics are changing for all of them. Pilots must understand that in the future they will not get the same outfashioned benefits as in the past. Just like miners could not understand that the economics had changed some twenty years ago. This not a personal attack on pilots, just the economic evolution of the airline industry.
I do not live in UK, so the only attraction to fly BA longhaul is good product at low price (compared to a nonstop flight). I have just cancelled a biz booking for April 23 and rebooked a more expensive, but safer, nonstop alternative. Believe me, this is abdly hurting BA abroad.
My impression is that BA pilots have been eager to strike for a long time but that they are picking a poor motive that will backfire. The question of Openskies is really marginal. The issue seems to be to threaten strike in order to keep their excellent pay and work load. Pilots should realize that industry models do evolve over time. The argument that pilots at some other airlines have similar or better pay is irrelevant; all these airlines are running into severe trouble and the eonomics are changing for all of them. Pilots must understand that in the future they will not get the same outfashioned benefits as in the past. Just like miners could not understand that the economics had changed some twenty years ago. This not a personal attack on pilots, just the economic evolution of the airline industry.
. IMHO, BA pilots have an outstanding and proven track record of NOT going on strike over the last three decades or so. I am therefore surprised at the reaction of some employee groups, especially within BA. If an employee group that has demonstratedly shown restraint over the last 30 years and that has abided by the somewhat arcane rules governing industrial action in the UK cannot go on strike, then I would say that British politicians and society as a whole must make it more difficult to initiate industrial action. Unless they are courageous enough to do so, I would say that BA pilots definitely have the right to go on strike, regardless of what I may think as a customer. The decision is up to them. But, as I said earlier in the thread, I may be culturally biased 
.
Mar 14, 2008, 3:35 am
#170
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Yes, but a huge percentage of ba's passengers, come from feeder cities in mainline Europe. By having direct flights into the US(BA's largest market) the need for growth in the UK is reduced.
Also, with a massive airplane order just placed, it would make sense for BA if OS is successful to redirect this order to the new airline... Again, to detriment of the UK bases.
In this scenario, OS eventually outgrows BA, and BA staff are forced into OS conditions... And then BA staff can strike all they want, as the operation can be easily covered by OS...
What people don't seem to notice, is how BA is willing to go ahead to a dispute that will surely cost tens of millions, for a project which is supposed to make 5 millions in profits over the next 2 years... Also, with the prospect of the US not completing stage 2(likely with both next American president prospects being just a tad protectionist) of the open skies agreement in which case stage 1 would be withdrawn. Why is it so important to BA not to concede??? Balpa are not asking for the terms on OS to be improved...
Also, with a massive airplane order just placed, it would make sense for BA if OS is successful to redirect this order to the new airline... Again, to detriment of the UK bases.
In this scenario, OS eventually outgrows BA, and BA staff are forced into OS conditions... And then BA staff can strike all they want, as the operation can be easily covered by OS...
What people don't seem to notice, is how BA is willing to go ahead to a dispute that will surely cost tens of millions, for a project which is supposed to make 5 millions in profits over the next 2 years... Also, with the prospect of the US not completing stage 2(likely with both next American president prospects being just a tad protectionist) of the open skies agreement in which case stage 1 would be withdrawn. Why is it so important to BA not to concede??? Balpa are not asking for the terms on OS to be improved...
So by offering a direct flight, with a higher percentage of higher yielding seats BA actualy would make more money.
Secondly - exactly what growth opportunities are there? I listened to Duncan Garrood yesterday, the commercial director of BAA who told us that Heathrow is 97.5% occupied. Where is BA going to grow, other than by using even larger aircraft? And that doesn't actually bring any new pilot jobs.
Why would BA want to redirect aircraft? And are they the right aircraft from OS? I don't see OS flying A380s just yet.
And OS would outgrow BA? Really?? When??? BA currently has around 240 aircraft, with another 60 on order.
I think if OS really becomes bigger than BA itself, it would be classed as a huge commercial success, taking on the likes of AF, KL and LH on in their own hubs. And if the pilots with their current actions prevent BA from pursuing this strategy they are acting against everyones best interest, including their own.
Mar 14, 2008, 3:44 am
#171
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Well as all this is still in the realms of the Speculative as we do not know exactly when this strike will happen I suppose that any guess is as good as another.
So - we all know that T5 opens on the 27th (it is isn't it, I am so thrilled at the whole thing that my memory has gone through lack of sleep) so if I were to be going on strike and wanted to cause the maximum embarassment to my Employer I'd go for that.
Please - this is my opinion and I am wholly unsupportive of the action for reasons that are best not discussed here. However no matter how fair minded I try to be, I always side with the people who oprovide the wherewithall for my wages. Forgive I'm just so old fashioned that way!
Love to you all
Time for a TFTG methinks. Home today and I will try if I do not fall in the gin.
Miss Lastov Dinasaurs
So - we all know that T5 opens on the 27th (it is isn't it, I am so thrilled at the whole thing that my memory has gone through lack of sleep) so if I were to be going on strike and wanted to cause the maximum embarassment to my Employer I'd go for that.
Please - this is my opinion and I am wholly unsupportive of the action for reasons that are best not discussed here. However no matter how fair minded I try to be, I always side with the people who oprovide the wherewithall for my wages. Forgive I'm just so old fashioned that way!
Love to you all
Time for a TFTG methinks. Home today and I will try if I do not fall in the gin.
Miss Lastov Dinasaurs
Mar 15, 2008, 7:01 am
#174
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7298066.stm
Originally Posted by BBC News
BA pilots to stage protest march
British Airways pilots are planning to march on BA's Heathrow headquarters, in protest at plans to use non-BA pilots in a new subsidiary.
BA's "OpenSkies" service is due to fly from non-UK European capitals to the USA following an EU-US agreement.
Pilots had voted for industrial action, but BA applied for a legal injunction to prevent it going ahead.
British Airways says the new airline would not be viable if all its pilots were employed under existing terms.
"This march and rally comes a week after a BA threat to serve an injunction on our Association. Our message is clear - we will not be bullied, we will not be brushed off, we will persevere", Jim McAuslan, General Secretary of the British Airline Pilots Association said.
BALPA says protesters will wear caps and T-shirts bearing the slogan 'BA planes - BA pilots'. A plane will fly a banner over London during the demonstration.
The march is scheduled to begin at 1pm and proceed down the A4, which will be partially closed by the police, to BA's headquarters.
As the march progresses, an aircraft is due to fly over London with a banner proclaiming "BA planes - BA pilots".
British Airways pilots are planning to march on BA's Heathrow headquarters, in protest at plans to use non-BA pilots in a new subsidiary.
BA's "OpenSkies" service is due to fly from non-UK European capitals to the USA following an EU-US agreement.
Pilots had voted for industrial action, but BA applied for a legal injunction to prevent it going ahead.
British Airways says the new airline would not be viable if all its pilots were employed under existing terms.
"This march and rally comes a week after a BA threat to serve an injunction on our Association. Our message is clear - we will not be bullied, we will not be brushed off, we will persevere", Jim McAuslan, General Secretary of the British Airline Pilots Association said.
BALPA says protesters will wear caps and T-shirts bearing the slogan 'BA planes - BA pilots'. A plane will fly a banner over London during the demonstration.
The march is scheduled to begin at 1pm and proceed down the A4, which will be partially closed by the police, to BA's headquarters.
As the march progresses, an aircraft is due to fly over London with a banner proclaiming "BA planes - BA pilots".
Mar 18, 2008, 4:43 am
#175
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And at said march, the union chap says court process will take approx 6-8 weeks, which should keep all those with easter bookings happy..........
Mar 28, 2008, 10:14 am
#176
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An update at last!
Legal process is not expected to be completed until early June. BALPA will then do a re-ballot (almost certainly a higher yes vote). Probably looking at July for strike action realistically.
Legal process is not expected to be completed until early June. BALPA will then do a re-ballot (almost certainly a higher yes vote). Probably looking at July for strike action realistically.
Mar 28, 2008, 10:30 am
#177
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Excellent, plenty of time for BA to put adds out "wanted pilots"
Mar 28, 2008, 10:50 am
#179
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"Legal process is not expected to be completed until early June. BALPA will then do a re-ballot (almost certainly a higher yes vote). Probably looking at July for strike action realistically."
Interesting. Speaking as a customer, usually J, who flies for both leisure and business purposes (my company's European HQ is in London) - and who has a family vacation planned for early August in J for which I've shelled out $20K and many EC miles - and who has watched with interest the difficulties of the past couple of days at T5 - I have a question: Is the whole of BA, its management, unions, contractors, etc., totally commited to the destruction of the very organization that provides for their livelihoods?
Interesting. Speaking as a customer, usually J, who flies for both leisure and business purposes (my company's European HQ is in London) - and who has a family vacation planned for early August in J for which I've shelled out $20K and many EC miles - and who has watched with interest the difficulties of the past couple of days at T5 - I have a question: Is the whole of BA, its management, unions, contractors, etc., totally commited to the destruction of the very organization that provides for their livelihoods?
Mar 28, 2008, 10:55 am
#180
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In fairness to Jumbodriver, if all he is going to get is comments verging on abuse for keeping us informed of what is happening, then pretty soon he'll give up - I know I would. And if he does that, we'll be worse off...
Don't shoot the messenger is really what I'm trying to say
^ to Jumbodriver for passing along the information
Don't shoot the messenger is really what I'm trying to say
^ to Jumbodriver for passing along the information