Stuck in NBO and need advice/help
Aug 31, 2005, 7:55 am
#16
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http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/ne...rticleid=28092
Oh, let's get back to the important thing (now that I am home) of what will BA do to make this up to me?
^
Oh, let's get back to the important thing (now that I am home) of what will BA do to make this up to me?
^
Aug 31, 2005, 8:28 am
#17
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat
http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/ne...rticleid=28092
Oh, let's get back to the important thing (now that I am home) of what will BA do to make this up to me? ^
Oh, let's get back to the important thing (now that I am home) of what will BA do to make this up to me?
^
Aug 31, 2005, 9:35 am
#19
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I'd also put in a claim for EU comp for both delayed flights as well. Levels of comp for cancelled flights are the same as for IDB. They'll try not to give it to you (particularly if mechnanical problems, although staff going out of hours could be considered within their control to some extent), but worth a try.
Aug 31, 2005, 10:11 am
#20
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Originally Posted by Jenbel
I'd also put in a claim for EU comp for both delayed flights as well. Levels of comp for cancelled flights are the same as for IDB. They'll try not to give it to you (particularly if mechnanical problems, although staff going out of hours could be considered within their control to some extent), but worth a try.
Article 7
Right to compensation
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall receive compensation amounting to:
(a) EUR 250 for all flights of 1500 kilometres or less;
(b) EUR 400 for all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres, and for all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres;
(c) EUR 600 for all flights not falling under (a) or (b).
Right to compensation
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall receive compensation amounting to:
(a) EUR 250 for all flights of 1500 kilometres or less;
(b) EUR 400 for all intra-Community flights of more than 1500 kilometres, and for all other flights between 1500 and 3500 kilometres;
(c) EUR 600 for all flights not falling under (a) or (b).
Article 14
Obligation to inform passengers of their rights
1. The operating air carrier shall ensure that at check-in a clearly legible notice containing the following text is displayed in a manner clearly visible to passengers: "If you are denied boarding or if your flight is cancelled or delayed for at least two hours, ask at the check-in counter or boarding gate for the text stating your rights, particularly with regard to compensation and assistance".
2. An operating air carrier denying boarding or cancelling a flight shall provide each passenger affected with a written notice setting out the rules for compensation and assistance in line with this Regulation. It shall also provide each passenger affected by a delay of at least two hours with an equivalent notice. The contact details of the national designated body referred to in Article 16 shall also be given to the passenger in written form.
Obligation to inform passengers of their rights
1. The operating air carrier shall ensure that at check-in a clearly legible notice containing the following text is displayed in a manner clearly visible to passengers: "If you are denied boarding or if your flight is cancelled or delayed for at least two hours, ask at the check-in counter or boarding gate for the text stating your rights, particularly with regard to compensation and assistance".
2. An operating air carrier denying boarding or cancelling a flight shall provide each passenger affected with a written notice setting out the rules for compensation and assistance in line with this Regulation. It shall also provide each passenger affected by a delay of at least two hours with an equivalent notice. The contact details of the national designated body referred to in Article 16 shall also be given to the passenger in written form.
(20) Passengers should be fully informed of their rights in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, so that they can effectively exercise their rights.
(14) As under the Montreal Convention, obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases where an event has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances may, in particular, occur in cases of political instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned, security risks, unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that affect the operation of an operating air carrier.
Of course, if BA did not notify you of your rights at the time, you could write BA the usual polite letter explaining what went wrong and giving the relevant details but without mentioning the regulations, and wait to see if they compensate you in accordance with the regulations. The full text of the regulations is here
Aug 31, 2005, 10:21 am
#21
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It's the "unexpected flight safety shortcomings" I'd be worried about in Para 14 
And just one further note -if they do compensate you, they may not just give you vouchers unless you agree it. You can ask for hard cash...
And just one further note -if they do compensate you, they may not just give you vouchers unless you agree it. You can ask for hard cash...
Aug 31, 2005, 11:07 am
#22
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There is no way of knowing how a court would interpret that provision. The preamble is not technically binding, although courts will normally take it into account in their interpretation. My hunch is that the European Court of Justice would tend towards interpretations favourable to the consumer rather than the airline but that is no more than just a hunch, and, short of an action by an enforcement authority or consumer protection association, I can' t imagine anybody likely to take this all the way to the ECJ. So, I would guess that, in the meantime, airlines will probably interpret it as restrictively as possible. As neither ATUC nor the CAA are noticeably dynamic and proactive in protecting consumer rights, I would be rather pessimistic about progress on that front anytime soon.
Aug 31, 2005, 11:29 am
#23
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The ECJ would probably have an eye at least to the French text, which reads:-
Although I'm not really a French speaker, this looks to me like "unforeseen failures capable of affecting the safety of flight". I wonder if the concept of "failures" would stretch as far as "breakdowns"?
(14) Tout comme dans le cadre de la convention de Montréal, les obligations des transporteurs aériens effectifs devraient être limitées ou leur responsabilité exonérée dans les cas où un événement est dû à des circonstances extraordinaires qui n'auraient pas pu être évitées même si toutes les mesures raisonnables avaient été prises. De telles circonstances peuvent se produire, en particulier, en cas d'instabilité politique, de conditions météorologiques incompatibles avec la réalisation du vol concerné, de risques liés à la sécurité, de défaillances imprévues pouvant affecter la sécurité du vol, ainsi que de grèves ayant une incidence sur les opérations d'un transporteur aérien effectif.
Aug 31, 2005, 11:34 am
#24
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However to add to the pessimism, a Guardian article which suggests the ATUC is making things up to suit the airlines 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian_j...552596,00.html
Fortunately, none of the stuff applies in this case at least.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian_j...552596,00.html
Fortunately, none of the stuff applies in this case at least.
Aug 31, 2005, 11:52 am
#25
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BA didn't tell us about anything or about our rights. I was instantly popular when I had a few printed out copies about our rights that someone posted in this thread (Thanks!) and I had to ask for them at the airport.
The best part is when I go to ba.com/euclaim like you're supposed to and it says that my flight on the 27th wasn't cancelled. oy.
The best part is when I go to ba.com/euclaim like you're supposed to and it says that my flight on the 27th wasn't cancelled. oy.
Aug 31, 2005, 12:31 pm
#26
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat
The best part is when I go to ba.com/euclaim like you're supposed to and it says that my flight on the 27th wasn't cancelled. oy.
Aug 31, 2005, 12:33 pm
#27
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Originally Posted by Jenbel
However to add to the pessimism, a Guardian article which suggests the ATUC is making things up to suit the airlines
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian_j...552596,00.html
Fortunately, none of the stuff applies in this case at least.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardian_j...552596,00.html
Fortunately, none of the stuff applies in this case at least.
Aug 31, 2005, 12:50 pm
#28
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Originally Posted by NickB
If it is part of the CoC, then BA must give you a copy on request.
Originally Posted by NickB
In the UK at least (and I would imagine most jurisdictions), IATA rules cannot, as betwen the pax and the airline, override contract law
When you buy a ticket to travel on a flight we operate, you enter into a contract of carriage with us. The contract is governed by:
> the conditions in your ticket or itinerary and receipt;
> any tariffs which apply;
> these Conditions of Carriage; and
> our regulations.
> the conditions in your ticket or itinerary and receipt;
> any tariffs which apply;
> these Conditions of Carriage; and
> our regulations.
If these conditions of carriage are inconsistent with any tariffs or laws which apply to your contract of carriage with us, the tariffs or laws will apply.
Aug 31, 2005, 1:21 pm
#29
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Originally Posted by NickB
Well, did the plane eventually leave with pax onboard and under the same flight # alongside the other flights? If the answer is yes, then they are right. Even if it is delayed for several days, it is still a delay. It is somewhat ironic that the airline can deny compensation by delaying a flight for several days rather than cancelling it but that is the implication of the Reg.
Aug 31, 2005, 4:10 pm
#30
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If the airline suggests that the regulations are ambiguous and should be interpreted in their favour, ask them to look at the preamble to see if it helps resolve the ambiguity. The preamble states:
In this case you might also point out to the airline that they failed to inform you of your rights and that this is a breach of the regulations in itself.
Nick B is right to say that the regulations do not provide for compensation in the event of a delay, and that this could be defined as a delay rather than a cancellation. However if I understand you correctly, you boarded, the flight was delayed, you were taken off the aircraft and taken to hotels. The following day you boarded, were delayed again, taken off the plane and taken to a hotel. You finally departed the next day. It is arguable that these circumstances constitute a cancellation rather than a delay - this is a common sense interpretation and is also permitted by the definition in Article 2:
I suggest a polite letter to Customer Service. You might recieve a pleasant bonus in your EC account in due course. If this doesn't work, try a follow-up letter and refer them to the regulations.
There is a school of thought (with which I have some sympathy) that says we should be grateful that BA takes our safety so seriously. This is particularly true when travelling in Africa.
Did you go to the Tamarind?
1) Action by the Community in the field of air transport should aim, among other things, at ensuring a high level of protection for passengers. Moreover, full account should be taken of the requirements of consumer protection in general.
(2) Denied boarding and cancellation or long delay of flights cause serious trouble and inconvenience to passengers.
(3) While Council Regulation (EEC) No 295/91 of 4 February 1991 establishing common rules for a denied boarding compensation system in scheduled air transport(4) created basic protection for passengers, the number of passengers denied boarding against their will remains too high, as does that affected by cancellations without prior warning and that affected by long delays.
(4) The Community should therefore raise the standards of protection set by that Regulation both to strengthen the rights of passengers and to ensure that air carriers operate under harmonised conditions in a liberalised market.
(2) Denied boarding and cancellation or long delay of flights cause serious trouble and inconvenience to passengers.
(3) While Council Regulation (EEC) No 295/91 of 4 February 1991 establishing common rules for a denied boarding compensation system in scheduled air transport(4) created basic protection for passengers, the number of passengers denied boarding against their will remains too high, as does that affected by cancellations without prior warning and that affected by long delays.
(4) The Community should therefore raise the standards of protection set by that Regulation both to strengthen the rights of passengers and to ensure that air carriers operate under harmonised conditions in a liberalised market.
Nick B is right to say that the regulations do not provide for compensation in the event of a delay, and that this could be defined as a delay rather than a cancellation. However if I understand you correctly, you boarded, the flight was delayed, you were taken off the aircraft and taken to hotels. The following day you boarded, were delayed again, taken off the plane and taken to a hotel. You finally departed the next day. It is arguable that these circumstances constitute a cancellation rather than a delay - this is a common sense interpretation and is also permitted by the definition in Article 2:
(l) "cancellation" means the non-operation of a flight which was previously planned and on which at least one place was reserved.
There is a school of thought (with which I have some sympathy) that says we should be grateful that BA takes our safety so seriously. This is particularly true when travelling in Africa.
Did you go to the Tamarind?