Where at T3 is This?
Jul 5, 2022, 12:43 am
#1
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Where at T3 is This?
Ok - so I won’t go into the many challenges with our flight out of T3 at this stage, but want to see if so can use the wisdom of Flyertalk to help with the most pressing and urgent of the challenges.
We checked in x5 bags against x3 PAX. All bags have an AirTag so I know where they are.
I knew that two of them were not onboard - the dispatcher was informed, I showed him where they were he said he checked and they were on-board but they weren’t.
When we landed in PHX as we had no WiFi onboard it became apparent that the two bags did not make it.
One is still at T3 - the other for some Unknown reason is in Lyon.
I have to deal with the US baggage office but want to tell them exactly where in T3 my bag is. Can anyone shed any light as to what this area is?
We’re in PHX for 4 days only and we have to get these bags as we embark on a 6 week road trip.
Any help, advice or tips and a steer as to the building my main suitcase is languishing in would help as I wait to call the US baggage office at 07:30 EST.
We checked in x5 bags against x3 PAX. All bags have an AirTag so I know where they are.
I knew that two of them were not onboard - the dispatcher was informed, I showed him where they were he said he checked and they were on-board but they weren’t.
When we landed in PHX as we had no WiFi onboard it became apparent that the two bags did not make it.
One is still at T3 - the other for some Unknown reason is in Lyon.
I have to deal with the US baggage office but want to tell them exactly where in T3 my bag is. Can anyone shed any light as to what this area is?
We’re in PHX for 4 days only and we have to get these bags as we embark on a 6 week road trip.
Any help, advice or tips and a steer as to the building my main suitcase is languishing in would help as I wait to call the US baggage office at 07:30 EST.
Jul 5, 2022, 12:57 am
#3
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Is there any experience on this in as much as will there be some system in there that will work out that the bag doesn’t belong there and will just automatically send it on the next flight? Or is this manual and someone’s going to have to go and physically look for it? Along with the thousands of other people’s bags. BA are clearly unaware as I didn’t get the bags as they have not proactively advised me the bags didn’t make the flight (or that someone somewhere randomly decided to send one of my bags for a trip to France). I suppose I just like to know how this stuff works so that I can understand better when in communication with BA.
Last edited by thegamebird; Jul 5, 2022 at 1:06 am
Jul 5, 2022, 1:38 am
#4
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Jul 5, 2022, 2:12 am
#5
Join Date: Feb 2007
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What I can read from above as it’s not really clear is that you haven’t reported this at your destination? Have you got a piece of paper with the tracking number? If you did report it then BA does know about this and deliver it wherever you specified. If you still haven’t reported the missing bags, the chances you will get it in the next few days are slim. I don’t think anyone in the US baggage office will be really interested where exactly the bags are, they can’t just call up people to search for your bag.
so call them Asap and report your missing bags if you haven’t done this!!
so call them Asap and report your missing bags if you haven’t done this!!
Jul 5, 2022, 2:22 am
#6
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,245
Good grief… how do you think it could have occurred that 3 of our bags made it, but the two assigned to MrGB did not, with one just sat there on ‘the collosal integrated baggage facility’ and the other went to LYS for some reason!? I’d just assumed it was all automated and the barcodes did their magic.
Is there any experience on this in as much as will there be some system in there that will work out that the bag doesn’t belong there and will just automatically send it on the next flight? Or is this manual and someone’s going to have to go and physically look for it? Along with the thousands of other people’s bags. BA are clearly unaware as I didn’t get the bags as they have not proactively advised me the bags didn’t make the flight (or that someone somewhere randomly decided to send one of my bags for a trip to France). I suppose I just like to know how this stuff works so that I can understand better when in communication with BA.
Is there any experience on this in as much as will there be some system in there that will work out that the bag doesn’t belong there and will just automatically send it on the next flight? Or is this manual and someone’s going to have to go and physically look for it? Along with the thousands of other people’s bags. BA are clearly unaware as I didn’t get the bags as they have not proactively advised me the bags didn’t make the flight (or that someone somewhere randomly decided to send one of my bags for a trip to France). I suppose I just like to know how this stuff works so that I can understand better when in communication with BA.
I'd start with the caveat that the AirTags are not a useful tracking tool. They are a Bluetooth device that leverages on other iDevices with Bluetooth on, thus "pinging" their location with a margin of accuracy that can be of many tens of metres. In a place like the T3 Integrated Baggage system (T3IB for short) there will be no people, and thus no iDevices, in the overwhelming majority of the structure. Bottom line, you can't act on the information that the bag is somewhere because the AirTag says so.
Having said this, the journey of a bag at LHR is: input point (direct or transfer), security X-ray, Early Bag Store (if the bins for the flight aren't being filled yet), then down to the lateral, into the bin, onto the plane. During its journey, a bag is constantly scanned by readers (up to 20 times) Each scan generate a datum point: time & location of the bag. These records are then input in the Heathrow's Baggage Tracking System (back in the day it was called Merlin) and in the Baggage Reconciliation System (that the airline uses). One key (and confusing) thing to remember is that there's no centralised "database" for BA as an airline to collect all the baggage info into a single location. In other words, there is still no way for BA to log in somewhere and say "Hey, MrGB's bag has been scanned in Houston". Houston knows, but that message doesn't flow any further (yet). So when you arrive at your destination and your bag isn't there, the BA Handler only has the local info, or what is input in (yet another system) Worldtracer.
This isn't the case for some airlines. Delta, for instance, has end-to-end visibility in their entire network. BA should've had too, but Covid put a spanner in the works.
Now, why do bags miss? First, it's worth saying that the number of bags that don't make it is exceedingly low. The numbers are expressed in bags/1,000 passengers, but you can also do a gross %. IATA airlines, at an average, deliver bags together with their customers in 98-99% of cases (from memory). For those who don't make it, the main causes are, in order of likelihood:
1) Transfer bags taking too long to move from one flight to another - due to delay of the inbound, or something like that
2) Bags failing the security check, and thus requiring checks by hand - that takes time, bags misses flight
3) Human error; in the case of out-of-gauge items that can't travel down the automated way, the procedure is more human-centric and thus subject to error. Plus there can be egregious examples of stupidity, of which I've seen many over the years.
4) Outage
5) Weird occurrences, like "multi-reads": the system reads two different barcodes on the bag - you've left a stub there, for instance - and that barcode has been seen by the system in the recent (2-3 days) past. That'll confuse it, triggering a need for manual check. Other weird occurrences are two small bags ending on the same tray (the little wagons on which they travel), bag tags being ripped out, this sort of stuff.
Overall I'd say that, of bags that miss, 1) accounts for 70% of the total, 2) for 10% and the other 3 share the remainder. I'm not too sure about which scenario applies for yours, or why one appears to have gone in LYS.
Finally in my spiel, how do bags get reflighted? In outstations, where things are simpler, a bag is "found" by an employee and delivered to the appropriate airline, whose employees will handle the re-flight. In LHR, a bag that is "in-system" (i.e. not lying around) will, next time that is scanned, trigger an alarm and the reconciliation system will automatically re-flight. In other words, if BA123 to Timbuctu has departed and one bag is left behind (say stuck at security) the next time it's going to be scanned the system will go "hmm, BA123 has departed. This bag will need to fly on the next one to Timbuctu which is... BA123 of tomorrow". A new overlay bag tag will be printed and added by a worker, and the bag will go back and await its next flight. I've seen plenty of bags missing the first LIN flight and getting on the second one, for instance. Then it's down to the courier, which is usually the weak link of the whole thing. For some reason, courier companies range between the barely decent and the downright criminal.
Jul 5, 2022, 2:29 am
#7
Join Date: Oct 2014
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I can provide an explanation of how an integrated baggage system works and why and how it might malfunction, plus a brief explanation of how the reflighting (getting your bags back) works.
I'd start with the caveat that the AirTags are not a useful tracking tool. They are a Bluetooth device that leverages on other iDevices with Bluetooth on, thus "pinging" their location with a margin of accuracy that can be of many tens of metres. In a place like the T3 Integrated Baggage system (T3IB for short) there will be no people, and thus no iDevices, in the overwhelming majority of the structure. Bottom line, you can't act on the information that the bag is somewhere because the AirTag says so.
Having said this, the journey of a bag at LHR is: input point (direct or transfer), security X-ray, Early Bag Store (if the bins for the flight aren't being filled yet), then down to the lateral, into the bin, onto the plane. During its journey, a bag is constantly scanned by readers (up to 20 times) Each scan generate a datum point: time & location of the bag. These records are then input in the Heathrow's Baggage Tracking System (back in the day it was called Merlin) and in the Baggage Reconciliation System (that the airline uses). One key (and confusing) thing to remember is that there's no centralised "database" for BA as an airline to collect all the baggage info into a single location. In other words, there is still no way for BA to log in somewhere and say "Hey, MrGB's bag has been scanned in Houston". Houston knows, but that message doesn't flow any further (yet). So when you arrive at your destination and your bag isn't there, the BA Handler only has the local info, or what is input in (yet another system) Worldtracer.
This isn't the case for some airlines. Delta, for instance, has end-to-end visibility in their entire network. BA should've had too, but Covid put a spanner in the works.
Now, why do bags miss? First, it's worth saying that the number of bags that don't make it is exceedingly low. The numbers are expressed in bags/1,000 passengers, but you can also do a gross %. IATA airlines, at an average, deliver bags together with their customers in 98-99% of cases (from memory). For those who don't make it, the main causes are, in order of likelihood:
1) Transfer bags taking too long to move from one flight to another - due to delay of the inbound, or something like that
2) Bags failing the security check, and thus requiring checks by hand - that takes time, bags misses flight
3) Human error; in the case of out-of-gauge items that can't travel down the automated way, the procedure is more human-centric and thus subject to error. Plus there can be egregious examples of stupidity, of which I've seen many over the years.
4) Outage
5) Weird occurrences, like "multi-reads": the system reads two different barcodes on the bag - you've left a stub there, for instance - and that barcode has been seen by the system in the recent (2-3 days) past. That'll confuse it, triggering a need for manual check. Other weird occurrences are two small bags ending on the same tray (the little wagons on which they travel), bag tags being ripped out, this sort of stuff.
Overall I'd say that, of bags that miss, 1) accounts for 70% of the total, 2) for 10% and the other 3 share the remainder. I'm not too sure about which scenario applies for yours, or why one appears to have gone in LYS.
Finally in my spiel, how do bags get reflighted? In outstations, where things are simpler, a bag is "found" by an employee and delivered to the appropriate airline, whose employees will handle the re-flight. In LHR, a bag that is "in-system" (i.e. not lying around) will, next time that is scanned, trigger an alarm and the reconciliation system will automatically re-flight. In other words, if BA123 to Timbuctu has departed and one bag is left behind (say stuck at security) the next time it's going to be scanned the system will go "hmm, BA123 has departed. This bag will need to fly on the next one to Timbuctu which is... BA123 of tomorrow". A new overlay bag tag will be printed and added by a worker, and the bag will go back and await its next flight. I've seen plenty of bags missing the first LIN flight and getting on the second one, for instance. Then it's down to the courier, which is usually the weak link of the whole thing. For some reason, courier companies range between the barely decent and the downright criminal.
I'd start with the caveat that the AirTags are not a useful tracking tool. They are a Bluetooth device that leverages on other iDevices with Bluetooth on, thus "pinging" their location with a margin of accuracy that can be of many tens of metres. In a place like the T3 Integrated Baggage system (T3IB for short) there will be no people, and thus no iDevices, in the overwhelming majority of the structure. Bottom line, you can't act on the information that the bag is somewhere because the AirTag says so.
Having said this, the journey of a bag at LHR is: input point (direct or transfer), security X-ray, Early Bag Store (if the bins for the flight aren't being filled yet), then down to the lateral, into the bin, onto the plane. During its journey, a bag is constantly scanned by readers (up to 20 times) Each scan generate a datum point: time & location of the bag. These records are then input in the Heathrow's Baggage Tracking System (back in the day it was called Merlin) and in the Baggage Reconciliation System (that the airline uses). One key (and confusing) thing to remember is that there's no centralised "database" for BA as an airline to collect all the baggage info into a single location. In other words, there is still no way for BA to log in somewhere and say "Hey, MrGB's bag has been scanned in Houston". Houston knows, but that message doesn't flow any further (yet). So when you arrive at your destination and your bag isn't there, the BA Handler only has the local info, or what is input in (yet another system) Worldtracer.
This isn't the case for some airlines. Delta, for instance, has end-to-end visibility in their entire network. BA should've had too, but Covid put a spanner in the works.
Now, why do bags miss? First, it's worth saying that the number of bags that don't make it is exceedingly low. The numbers are expressed in bags/1,000 passengers, but you can also do a gross %. IATA airlines, at an average, deliver bags together with their customers in 98-99% of cases (from memory). For those who don't make it, the main causes are, in order of likelihood:
1) Transfer bags taking too long to move from one flight to another - due to delay of the inbound, or something like that
2) Bags failing the security check, and thus requiring checks by hand - that takes time, bags misses flight
3) Human error; in the case of out-of-gauge items that can't travel down the automated way, the procedure is more human-centric and thus subject to error. Plus there can be egregious examples of stupidity, of which I've seen many over the years.
4) Outage
5) Weird occurrences, like "multi-reads": the system reads two different barcodes on the bag - you've left a stub there, for instance - and that barcode has been seen by the system in the recent (2-3 days) past. That'll confuse it, triggering a need for manual check. Other weird occurrences are two small bags ending on the same tray (the little wagons on which they travel), bag tags being ripped out, this sort of stuff.
Overall I'd say that, of bags that miss, 1) accounts for 70% of the total, 2) for 10% and the other 3 share the remainder. I'm not too sure about which scenario applies for yours, or why one appears to have gone in LYS.
Finally in my spiel, how do bags get reflighted? In outstations, where things are simpler, a bag is "found" by an employee and delivered to the appropriate airline, whose employees will handle the re-flight. In LHR, a bag that is "in-system" (i.e. not lying around) will, next time that is scanned, trigger an alarm and the reconciliation system will automatically re-flight. In other words, if BA123 to Timbuctu has departed and one bag is left behind (say stuck at security) the next time it's going to be scanned the system will go "hmm, BA123 has departed. This bag will need to fly on the next one to Timbuctu which is... BA123 of tomorrow". A new overlay bag tag will be printed and added by a worker, and the bag will go back and await its next flight. I've seen plenty of bags missing the first LIN flight and getting on the second one, for instance. Then it's down to the courier, which is usually the weak link of the whole thing. For some reason, courier companies range between the barely decent and the downright criminal.
Can i ask, if a bag is in the bag store, what would prompt it to be scanned and set off the alarm thatbit is 'lost'
Jul 5, 2022, 2:46 am
#8
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,245
Let's say for the sake of argument that BA123 to Timbuktu departs at 10.00AM. The baggage team will start "building the bins" at 07.00AM (roughly, I can't remember the exact timings) and will close the flight at 09.30AM (again, roughly).
The bag store will start releasing whichever bags it holds from 07.00AM, starting with the first bin that is opened by the baggage team. Again, I can't remember which bin starts first, but let's say it's Economy. The Bag Store will start releasing Economy bags, sending them down conveyor belts to the appropriate lateral. If, at 07.30AM, an Economy bag is checked in at front of house (or arrives from a transfer flight), this will go down to the lateral. It might do some "circling" if the lateral is busy, but it shouldn't go to the store. And so it'll be for the other bags until, at 09.30AM, the bag store is empty. There's no chance that any bag is "left behind"... I mean, something might go wrong in the extraction from the store shelf, but that would be a mechanical failure of some sort and a weird one at that.
If there's a bag for the BA123 still in the system at 09.31AM - "caught up in traffic", if you will, then the system will spot it and do the reflight I mentioned.
Jul 5, 2022, 3:30 am
#9
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,633
There is a huge baggage backlog at the moment according to other threads. Don't get your hopes up that you'll see your bags whilst in Phoenix (or even in the US for that matter). Start buying replacement stuff as soon as you can, and then make a claim against BA (or your insurers) when you get back home.
Jul 5, 2022, 5:17 am
#10
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Location: London
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Reported at the airport and have a file reference number. Interestingly the second bag which randomly was sent to France, they’ve been in touch and asked for the reference number, but the one which remains in T3 - nothing.
Jul 5, 2022, 5:26 am
#11
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Thanks for this brilliant explanation, 13901 - it helps me understand and rally confirm my suspicion that it all ‘magically’ happens due to the barcodes.
I really, really hope you’re right regarding the fact that it should now make the BA289 today, however as we approach 04:30 here in Phoenix and 12:30 in the UK the baggage claim portal system thingy is still showing as searching for my bag.
I understand what you mean by the AirTags pinging off the signal, but it’s been intermittently refreshing over the last 12 hours and so is pinging off something and although it has moved within the structure a little it is still sitting in there. Somewhere.
it may be coincidence that both the bags allocated to MrGB when AWOL, and I’m still totally unsure how one of them could have ended up in LYS! I just hope you’re right that the system just does it’s thing and it gets loaded today.
I really, really hope you’re right regarding the fact that it should now make the BA289 today, however as we approach 04:30 here in Phoenix and 12:30 in the UK the baggage claim portal system thingy is still showing as searching for my bag.
I understand what you mean by the AirTags pinging off the signal, but it’s been intermittently refreshing over the last 12 hours and so is pinging off something and although it has moved within the structure a little it is still sitting in there. Somewhere.
it may be coincidence that both the bags allocated to MrGB when AWOL, and I’m still totally unsure how one of them could have ended up in LYS! I just hope you’re right that the system just does it’s thing and it gets loaded today.
Jul 5, 2022, 5:37 am
#12
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,633
AirTags are pretty accurate. They have a range of up to 800 feet (according to Mr Google) - so anybody passing with an iPhone could get a ping. I watched my bag move around CDG recently before it got loaded onto my connecting flight.
Jul 5, 2022, 5:44 am
#13
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I know - they’re equally cathartic and anxiety inducing in equal measure. I have to say on landing in PHX and eventually getting a mobile signal (no working wifi on board, only x2 operational loos on the 351 for the whole club cabin and not loaded my duty free ordered a month ago. Plus the chicken pie all adding to my woes) and then seeing that one of the bags was in bloody Lyon was not the highlight of my trip.
Jul 5, 2022, 5:59 am
#14
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Jul 5, 2022, 6:03 am
#15
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You'll probably get the one that went to LYS back first. The handling agents there are going to be more on top of a few indidivual bags and get it re-routed fairly swiftly so it's not hanging around getting in their way. The one at T3 though is more likely to sit in a massive heap of disrupted bags for much longer before someone gets around to looking at it.